Panther's Financials Leaked, $112mil In Profits 2010-2012 - Page 2 - TigerDroppings.com

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Dr RC
USA Fan
Dallas
Member since Aug 2011
11689 posts

re: Panther's Financials Leaked, $112mil In Profits 2010-2012


quote:

Pretty sure none of the owners said that they were losing money




quote:

Says who? The owners goal is to make as much money as possible. I am sure none of the owners think that they made enough money or are doing "just fine"








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threeputt
Notre Dame Fan
God's Country
Member since Sep 2008
21743 posts

re: Panther's Financials Leaked, $112mil In Profits 2010-2012


Still do not see where he is claiming he is losing money


Negative cash flow =\= a loss






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molsusports
LSU Fan
Member since Jul 2004
26432 posts
 Online 

re: Panther's Financials Leaked, $112mil In Profits 2010-2012


quote:

He has an asset worth $1B, returning 6.1% interest. I'm not crying for the guy, but it certainly is on par with what he could get if he invested $1B elsewhere.


Several points:

The value of the NFL franchises has risen dramatically in recent decades (they paid just over $200M in 1993, now it is worth over a billion)

One of the arguments about why pro sports are good investments is NOT necessarily about the money returned each year (although 6% annual return today would be fine for 2010-2012 if your calculated value of a billion paid were to be correct) but that the franchises have been escalating dramatically in overall value. (So any owner unhappy with a "6%" return investment with public support should feel free to sell out a reap another giant windfall).

They have been lying about losing money

They have been receiving public money for their stadium etc.






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Anfield Road
Mississippi St. Fan
Rocket City
Member since May 2012
653 posts

re: Panther's Financials Leaked, $112mil In Profits 2010-2012


quote:


He has an asset worth $1B, returning 6.1% interest. I'm not crying for the guy, but it certainly is on par with what he could get if he invested $1B elsewhere.



You're looking at the worth of the franchise right now. What's the capital appreciation during that time period. You can't just use profits in ROI calculation. Otherwise, you'd only count dividends when figuring out if you got a good ROI on a stock.



This post was edited on 3/7 at 6:50 pm


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Tmacelroy12
LSU Fan
Houston
Member since Aug 2012
5489 posts

re: Panther's Financials Leaked, $112mil In Profits 2010-2012


quote:

cash flow

quote:

cash position

These two are different

Cash position is pretty much the balance sheet item. It only really represents one date out of the year.

I would really doubt however that the Panthers have cash flow problems when they have weekly TV deals and half the year stadium revenues.







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Tiger n Miami AU83
Auburn Fan
Miami
Member since Oct 2007
31875 posts

re: Panther's Financials Leaked, $112mil In Profits 2010-2012


quote:

Reminds me of how the marlins duped Miami Dade into voting for public funding for the new stadium claiming the team was losing money. Then their pre vote financials were leaked showing the team was making over $30 mil + per year in profits



And after the slash and burn tactics last year, people are estimating they make $60-$80 million this year, mostly off the back of luxury taxes (revenue sharing) paid by the yankees, angels, dodgers, etc.

frick Lorio.






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threeputt
Notre Dame Fan
God's Country
Member since Sep 2008
21743 posts

re: Panther's Financials Leaked, $112mil In Profits 2010-2012


quote:

frick Lorio





Wanna fight



This post was edited on 3/7 at 7:00 pm


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Tiger n Miami AU83
Auburn Fan
Miami
Member since Oct 2007
31875 posts

re: Panther's Financials Leaked, $112mil In Profits 2010-2012


Jeffrey Loria?

Fo sure.

Although I will still go to several games this year.






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threeputt
Notre Dame Fan
God's Country
Member since Sep 2008
21743 posts

re: Panther's Financials Leaked, $112mil In Profits 2010-2012


quote:

Jeffrey Loria



Cool .. Thought you wanted a piece of me for a second :lol;






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Tiger n Miami AU83
Auburn Fan
Miami
Member since Oct 2007
31875 posts

re: Panther's Financials Leaked, $112mil In Profits 2010-2012


quote:

Thought you wanted a piece of me for a second


Hell no







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BBONDS25
LSU Fan
Member since Mar 2008
15384 posts

re: Panther's Financials Leaked, $112mil In Profits 2010-2012


I think he put up 300 plus in 93 or so. That's on the forbes link, so correct me if I'm wrong. I'm too lazy to do the math, but compund the interest each year at 6 percent and a billion 20 years later doesn't seem too far off.





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molsusports
LSU Fan
Member since Jul 2004
26432 posts
 Online 

re: Panther's Financials Leaked, $112mil In Profits 2010-2012


quote:

I think he put up 300 plus in 93 or so


206 million

LINK






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hg
LSU Fan
Member since Jun 2009
66070 posts

re: Panther's Financials Leaked, $112mil In Profits 2010-2012


I hate their boring/terrible stadium





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BBONDS25
LSU Fan
Member since Mar 2008
15384 posts

re: Panther's Financials Leaked, $112mil In Profits 2010-2012


Thanks. so off the top pf my head, again correct me if I'm wrong at 7 percent compunded for 20 years it should be 824MM. At 10 percent it would be almost 1.6B. So around an 8 percent return, which is good. And if he took profits out each year of 6 percent (don't know if he did). That's a fantastic rate. If he didn't it is about what most shoot for. So if he took profits I concede the point.





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SabiDojo
South Alabama Fan
Open to any suggestions
Member since Nov 2010
27332 posts

re: Panther's Financials Leaked, $112mil In Profits 2010-2012


quote:

The statement is for the years ending March 31, 2011, and March 31, 2012. Over the first period, as Richardson argued that the NFL's business model was hopelessly broken and steered the owners toward a showdown to extract more money from the players, the Panthers recorded an operating profit of $78.7 million. The team had gone 2-14 on the field, but Richardson and his partners were able to pay themselves $12 million.



I honestly don't see the problem here. Why is this news?






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lighter345
New Orleans Pelicans Fan
Member since Jan 2009
10217 posts
 Online 

re: Panther's Financials Leaked, $112mil In Profits 2010-2012


Failing business model doesn't do it for you?





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molsusports
LSU Fan
Member since Jul 2004
26432 posts
 Online 

re: Panther's Financials Leaked, $112mil In Profits 2010-2012


quote:

Thanks. so off the top pf my head, again correct me if I'm wrong at 7 percent compunded for 20 years it should be 824MM. At 10 percent it would be almost 1.6B. So around an 8 percent return, which is good. And if he took profits out each year of 6 percent (don't know if he did). That's a fantastic rate. If he didn't it is about what most shoot for. So if he took profits I concede the point.



the ownership are profiting two ways though. They are apparently generating significant revenue every year and they have a good appreciation of the value of the franchise

If you just counted the gain between 2013 and 1993 in franchise value you'd already have something between 8 and 9% annual return. But that ignores the extra hundreds of millions they are also making in take home money (e.g. 112 million between 2010 and 2012 alone)







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molsusports
LSU Fan
Member since Jul 2004
26432 posts
 Online 

re: Panther's Financials Leaked, $112mil In Profits 2010-2012


quote:


I honestly don't see the problem here. Why is this news?


because the ownership of the panthers had been pleading poverty






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kfizzle85
LSU Fan
en oh, el ay
Member since Dec 2005
20835 posts

re: Panther's Financials Leaked, $112mil In Profits 2010-2012


Y'all actually look at these or no? They had a negative gross operating margin this year and only a gross margin of $30 million last year (which is indeed due to player contracts) and pretty much zero revenue growth (which I guess will be solved by the tv agreement stated). To call the income from the NFL "massive" at $45MM and $47MM would be an understatement and is legitimately propping up the earnings of this franchise (see: Income from Investments in NFL Ventures, L.P. line item). As an aside if you were ever curious as to how big the "NFL" itself is financially, scroll into the notes and look at the "Investments in NFL Ventures LP" note.

Get off the I/S and look at the CF/S, there's no add-back for that I/S line item out of net income so that's a pure cash flow since its an equity method investment (also buried in "Other Assets" on the B/S which is where the CF line item change comes from for the accountant/finance types out there). Crudely back out of operating cash flows (39MM and 26MM) the 45MM and 47MM NFL pmts in 11 and 12, respectively, and you have negative cash flows both years. I caveat that with the fact that there's a lot of operating asset/liability movement that is relatively unexplanatory (why did they increase prepaid expenses ~$20mm, I have no idea) that is affecting that number as well. I'm not going to try and estimate what actual unlevered fcf might be because I don't know what components of that are maintenance capex/expansion capex etc and what the nature of those operating assets/liabs are.

Also, yeah their cash balance went up ~30MM from 11 to 12. They also reclassified ~$27 MM from "Cash reserves held by the NFL" from a fixed asset to cash (I have no idea why and the notes do not mention it), so pretty much a wash (not that anyone aside from DS would ever consider that a sign of profitability given the number of things that can impact a cash balance, but I digress).

I'm not saying they're losing money hand over fist, or that the team itself is in terrible fiscal shape (they paid off a shite ton of debt last year though, and I wouldn't call 3x levering "healthy" either, its closer to unhealthy than healthy for a capital intensive business), or that the owners aren't doing a lot of jawboning, but they're also not killing it either.

Every time these come out I say this. The value of owning an NFL team (or most sports franchises for that matter) is hoping that the next fool will come along and pay you more than what you paid for the team, its been that way for 20 years. On a standalone business perspective owning an NFL team continues to be a mediocre investment at best and one that requires a substantial economic cushion in order to operate (see: Shinn, George).






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Tiger n Miami AU83
Auburn Fan
Miami
Member since Oct 2007
31875 posts

re: Panther's Financials Leaked, $112mil In Profits 2010-2012


No I didn't look at them, but just scanned them now.

You should also point out a large $60MM depreciation expense this year that is a non-cash item that significantly lowered the NI. That is a hell of a lot of depreciation. I scanned the notes, but didn't see enough fixed assets placed in service to account for the large jump (due to 2012 179 or bonus). Probably something to do with amortization of contracts since those went up as well (didn't look to see what amortization looked like, and I'm signing off for the night now).






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