How much would taxes have to rise on each taxpayer - Page 3 - TigerDroppings.com

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joshnorris14
Florida Fan
Florida
Member since Jan 2009
21229 posts

re: How much would taxes have to rise on each taxpayer


quote:


OK... So why haven't the world's many democratic nations with socialized or mixed healthcare systems scrapped them?


I don't know. Why was slavery an institution for thousands of years even though it's a highly inefficient form of labor?

quote:

Why are their healthcare costs lower? Why is their patient satisfaction higher?



Costs are higher than they would be if there was a market system. You can't measure it either.







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Korkstand
LSU Fan
Plaquemine, LA
Member since Nov 2003
9392 posts

re: How much would taxes have to rise on each taxpayer


quote:

I use the definition of Socialism when discussing Socialism. That is:

Government ownership over the means of production.

That's why I didn't say insurance was socialism, I said it is a socialist concept, much like police and fire departments.

Many contribute, relatively few benefit directly, but all benefit through peace of mind and the overall safety/health of the group.






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joshnorris14
Florida Fan
Florida
Member since Jan 2009
21229 posts

re: How much would taxes have to rise on each taxpayer


I just absolutely disagree with you on that. If that's what you mean by a "socialist concept" then I have no problem with it and I am as Capitalist as they come.





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RandyVandy
Vanderbilt Fan
Member since Nov 2011
954 posts

re: How much would taxes have to rise on each taxpayer


quote:


I don't know. Why was slavery an institution for thousands of years even though it's a highly inefficient form of labor?


It isn't inefficient in a pre-modern economy.

quote:

Costs are higher than they would be if there was a market system. You can't measure it either.


Pure opinion based on economic philosophy, not econometrics.






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joshnorris14
Florida Fan
Florida
Member since Jan 2009
21229 posts

re: How much would taxes have to rise on each taxpayer


quote:

It isn't inefficient in a pre-modern economy.


Yes it is. It's highly inefficient. Laborers act as empty shells only capable of taking commands.

quote:

Pure opinion based on economic philosophy, not econometrics.


Econometrics = unicorns pissing rainbows.

(what you call) opinion based economics = Praxeology (The SCIENCE of human action).



This post was edited on 2/26 at 12:00 am


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RandyVandy
Vanderbilt Fan
Member since Nov 2011
954 posts

re: How much would taxes have to rise on each taxpayer


quote:


Yes it is. It's highly inefficient. Laborers act as empty shells only capable of taking commands.


exactly. I want a pyramid built, and need a couple thousand human forklifts who can listen to basic commands and be quickly replaced when they are crushed, fall to their death, etc. We are talking about a blood and sweat economy, not a knowledge and service economy.


quote:

Econometrics = unicorns pissing rainbows.

(what you call) opinion based economics = Praxeology (The SCIENCE of human action).



Econometrics is scientific economics; economic study based on math, statistics and empirical evidence.

Praxelogy is a reductionist philosophy used by no one but Austrian school economists. It belongs in the 17th century, along with all the other interesting but flawed philosophies that attempted to explain our world prior to the development of the scientific method.

Sorry for the late edit; hit submit on accident.



This post was edited on 2/26 at 12:13 am


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SmackoverHawg
Arkansas Fan
Member since Oct 2011
13358 posts
 Online 

re: How much would taxes have to rise on each taxpayer


quote:

Private insurers, big pharma, hospital lobbyist, and other interests groups will never allow.


There are plenty of interest groups on the other side, not to mention the democratic party, which is the most powerful it has ever been in its very long history.

Who do you think is funding them?






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SmackoverHawg
Arkansas Fan
Member since Oct 2011
13358 posts
 Online 

re: How much would taxes have to rise on each taxpayer


quote:

there is miscalculation being committed by the NHS bureaucracy, perhaps there is, then why are Brits so proud of their system.




Because people like ''free shit'' no matter how awful the service.

And they don't know any f$%king different.






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joshnorris14
Florida Fan
Florida
Member since Jan 2009
21229 posts

re: How much would taxes have to rise on each taxpayer


quote:

exactly. I want a pyramid built, and need a couple thousand human forklifts who can listen to basic commands and be quickly replaced when they are crushed, fall to their death, etc. We are talking about a blood and sweat economy, not a knowledge and service economy.


You're still not getting as productive of labor as you would if they weren't slaves (The people who built the Egyptian pyramids weren't slaves fyi)






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Korkstand
LSU Fan
Plaquemine, LA
Member since Nov 2003
9392 posts

re: How much would taxes have to rise on each taxpayer


quote:

I just absolutely disagree with you on that. If that's what you mean by a "socialist concept" then I have no problem with it and I am as Capitalist as they come.

Not sure if I understand what part you disagree with, and what part you have no problem with.

I am capitalist, as well, but I understand that not all products and services are subject to the same market forces that make capitalism work.






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joshnorris14
Florida Fan
Florida
Member since Jan 2009
21229 posts

re: How much would taxes have to rise on each taxpayer


quote:

Praxelogy is a reductionist philosophy used by no one but Austrian school economists. It belongs in the 17th century, along with all the other interesting but flawed philosophies that attempted to explain our world prior to the development of the scientific method.



You can't use the scientific method in the social sciences effectively. Mises axioms deduced from praxeologically were factual. They are irrefutable. I would love to see you try to refute one of them.






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joshnorris14
Florida Fan
Florida
Member since Jan 2009
21229 posts

re: How much would taxes have to rise on each taxpayer


Not sure if I understand what part you disagree with, and what part you have no problem with.
quote:

Not sure if I understand what part you disagree with, and what part you have no problem with.


That insurance is a socialist concept (I don't agree that police and fire departments are either, at least not conceptually).

quote:

I am capitalist, as well, but I understand that not all products and services are subject to the same market forces that make capitalism work.


I disagree with this.






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RandyVandy
Vanderbilt Fan
Member since Nov 2011
954 posts

re: How much would taxes have to rise on each taxpayer


quote:

You're still not getting as productive of labor as you would if they weren't slaves


Why?

quote:

You can't use the scientific method in the social sciences effectively.


Again, why? A Unified field theory could hypothetically explain every event, ever (though this may be beyond the limits of human understanding).

quote:

Mises axioms deduced from praxeologically were factual. They are irrefutable. I would love to see you try to refute one of them


Non-empirical ideas are by definition irrefutable. The conclusions reached by these theories are, though. I mean, did Mother Teresa act according to rational self interest?







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joshnorris14
Florida Fan
Florida
Member since Jan 2009
21229 posts

re: How much would taxes have to rise on each taxpayer


quote:

Why?


No incentives, only consequences. They are not acting beings, they are reduced to obey with no hope for betterment. Because of that, they do not work hard. They work, at best, at the minimum rate to not be beat. And at every turn they must be commanded as to what to do.

quote:

Non-empirical ideas are by definition irrefutable.


So refute the action axiom.






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RandyVandy
Vanderbilt Fan
Member since Nov 2011
954 posts

re: How much would taxes have to rise on each taxpayer


quote:


No incentives, only consequences. They are not acting beings, they are reduced to obey with no hope for betterment. Because of that, they do not work hard. They work, at best, at the minimum rate to not be beat. And at every turn they must be commanded as to what to do.


Plenty of slaves rose to positions of privilege and authority, especially in the Islamic world and even in the antebellum south. In Europe, you just described life for 90% of the population up until the abolishing of serfdom.

Most modern American shift workers do the bare minimum, and they are protected by labor laws. You are ignoring the benefits of an expendable workforce.

Slaves didn't always need to be commanded as to what to do; they weren't idiots and knew their daily responsibilities. Irregardless, every enterprise need people that just perform whatever menial labor they are instructed; hence my "human forklift" analogy. This was especially true prior to industrialization, automation, etc.

I am of course speaking in generalities in the above.

quote:

So refute the action axiom.


There is nothing to refute! It is basically a simple statement of x+y=z, with almost no definition of terms. The claims of libertarians don't even necessarily follow from it, nor is it really transferable to macro-economics.






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joshnorris14
Florida Fan
Florida
Member since Jan 2009
21229 posts

re: How much would taxes have to rise on each taxpayer


quote:


There is nothing to refute!


You just said it was definitely refutable by definition since it was a priori. What happened?

Refute one of the axioms that follows from the action axiom then.

quote:

nor is it really transferable to macro-economics.


There is no such thing as macroeconomics.

quote:

I am of course speaking in generalities in the above.


Yes you are speaking in vast generalities in a posterriori since with no proof. Also, are you going to back up your claim that the pyramids were built by slaves?







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RandyVandy
Vanderbilt Fan
Member since Nov 2011
954 posts

re: How much would taxes have to rise on each taxpayer


quote:


You just said it was definitely refutable by definition since it was a priori. What happened?


I said irrefutable...

quote:


There is no such thing as macroeconomics.


Yes, there is. And it deals with a lot of the same concepts as the ASoE (business cycle theory, monetary theory, etc).

quote:

Yes you are speaking in vast generalities in a posterriori since with no proof. Also, are you going to back up your claim that the pyramids were built by slaves?




It wasn't a claim, per se. Just a rather informal example. I'll gladly concede that the pyramids were not built by slaves (though I will say it is probably debatable that slaves or de facto slaves were not part of the labor force used in building the pyramids). is you assertion that no great historical construction projects (or other undertakings) heavily used slaves, and that in fact the conditions of slavery made their construction possible in a pre-industrial setting?



This post was edited on 2/26 at 1:46 am


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ShortyRob
LSU Fan
Huntsville, AL
Member since Oct 2008
26534 posts

re: How much would taxes have to rise on each taxpayer


quote:

How much would taxes have to rise on each taxpayer
Need clarification from you.

Are you literally referring to "each taxpayer" or are you referring to each possible taxpayer?

Because if only referring to each taxpayer, your post can be restated as......

"How much would taxes have to go up on half the nation so that the other half could have free health care"?






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Poodlebrain
LSU Fan
Way Right of Rex
Member since Jan 2004
15212 posts

re: How much would taxes have to rise on each taxpayer


My definition of a successful socialized medicine system requires that every healthcare desire I have be satisfied. Thus, I know that the amount of medical services I would consume would increase. Every minor complaint I have would result in a visit for medical services since my health would be the single most important issue on planet Earth given the unlimited resources of others I'd be willing to spend on my health care. So you should expect to pay a lot in taxes to provide for a successful socialized medicine system for me, Poodlebrain.





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LSUconvert
LSU Fan
Clackamas, Or
Member since Aug 2007
498 posts

re: How much would taxes have to rise on each taxpayer


quote:

big pharma



mostly this that wont allow it.


They make less money if they have to negotiate with every U.S. citizen rather than just the ones that need their drugs to survive.






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