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Taxing Authority
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Houston
Member since Feb 2010
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re: The President's Commision on Global Warming


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Now, I think we all agree that water vapor is the main gas that captures this heat, and that CO2 does the same.
They are in no way comparable in magnitude. By several orders.

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So what causes more water vapor? Heat.
No. Lots of other factors go into this. Wind. Albedo. Vertical distribution of temperature. Water surface area.

Further, guess what happens to the "heat" that "made" the water vapor when said vapor condenses into clouds? (HINT: that "heat" isn't at the surface anymore)

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So what created the imbalance that lead to more water vapor in the atmosphere?
What imbalance are you speaking of? My psychrometic charts have not changed. The water/heat/RH balance has not changed.

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Is there no chance that a slight increase in CO2, no matter how seemingly insignificant, could capture and radiate enough heat to warm the earth enough to create more water vapor?
Nope. CO2 doesn't have enough heat capacity to heat the water-laden air. It's a simple thermodynamic calculation.

Think of it like this. If you have an egg you just boiled... does it cool off faster if you blow on it, or run water over it?



This post was edited on 2/11 at 11:44 pm


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Korkstand
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Plaquemine, LA
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re: The President's Commision on Global Warming


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CO2 doesn't act as an insulator. CO2 is incapable of storing heat at atmospheric temperatures and pressures. It's a gas FFS!

What the frick are you saying? Gases are incapable of storing heat? It is matter, it can store heat. It doesn't store it for very long, but it stores heat. You aren't making sense anymore.

Besides, it's not that CO2 stores heat, it's that it absorbs the infrared radiation coming from the surface, causing the CO2 itself to radiate, essentially reflecting a portion of the surface heat back to the surface.

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Further, for the entire AGW theory to work, the heating must occur at the surface ONLY. (Remember when I mentioned boundary condition flux potential above?) Heated air doesn't stay at the surface. What direction does heated air go? And what does that do to radiation potential to space?
Why does it matter where the warm air goes if the cool air taking its place has similar concentrations of CO2? And all the while, the warm air/CO2/water vapor is radiating its heat in all directions, including back down toward the surface.

How old are you? I get the feeling that you think you know a lot more than you actually do, like you are still in school or fresh out.






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Korkstand
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re: The President's Commision on Global Warming


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No. Lots of other factors go into this. Wind. Albedo. Vertical distribution of temperature. Water surface area.

Water surface area is essentially constant. Wind can probably be considered a constant globally. Albedo varies with cloud cover, so water vapor has a negative feedback self-balancing effect, right?
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What imbalance are you speaking of? My psychrometic charts have not changed. The water/heat/RH balance has not changed.

I meant it hypothetically. As in, since global average temperatures are (apparently) increasing, and since water vapor seems to be the culprit in holding all that heat, what is the variable that caused the harmonious humidity/temperature balance to change?






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Taxing Authority
LSU Fan
Houston
Member since Feb 2010
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re: The President's Commision on Global Warming


quote:

It is matter, it can store heat. It doesn't store it for very long, but it stores heat.
Oh good grief. Yes, technically it does. But compared to water (that changes phase at atmospheric pressures) it isn't an appreciable amount. And if you transferred all of atmospheric CO2's heat to water vapor it wouldn't heat the water very much. Just look at the Cp's for each.

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Why does it matter where the warm air goes if the cool air taking its place has similar concentrations of CO2?
Why does it matter? Because the warm air carries heat with it. To the upper atmosphere. And when it condences, it releases that heat. Away from the lower atmosphere. What happens to surface temperatures when you remove heat?

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And all the while, the warm air/CO2/water vapor is radiating its heat in all directions, including back down toward the surface.
No, No, No, No. Radiation does NOT occur equally in all directions. The earth's surface is far from a black body. Space is (well, practically). Which has a greater potential to radiate energy away from the atmosphere? The heat is going to go out to space. It's the only way it can go (practically). It only flows one way. Hot to cold. And space as it turns out... is pretty damn cold!

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How old are you?
40 years.

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I get the feeling that you think you know a lot more than you actually do, like you are still in school or fresh out.
Try again. I model dynamic systems, including thermodynamic systems with numerous commercial and proprietary codes.



This post was edited on 2/12 at 12:29 am


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Taxing Authority
LSU Fan
Houston
Member since Feb 2010
21139 posts

re: The President's Commision on Global Warming


quote:

Water surface area is essentially constant
NO! Not hardly! Sea levels have varied by hundreds of feet. Hell, when we lay pipelines offshore, we do archaeological surveys to see if we're disturbing any prehistoric civilization sites that were once dry land.

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Wind can probably be considered a constant globally.
Over time? Over geography? LINK / What is the proxy for wind in the miocene or even the Pliocene?

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Albedo varies with cloud cover,
And ground cover...

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so water vapor has a negative feedback self-balancing effect, right?
Perhaps? It's poorly understood. The best sattelite measurements seem to correlate increased cloud cover with lower surface temperatures. Go figure.

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As in, since global average temperatures are (apparently) increasing, and since water vapor seems to be the culprit in holding all that heat, what is the variable that caused the harmonious humidity/temperature balance to change?
Where is this abnormal amount of heat you keep talking about? If you believe UEA-CRU's cooked data, we've only seen a 0.3-0.5C rise in the last century. Yet the difference between the high and low temperature today for my home town is over 10C. Clearly weather is more significant in determining temperatures and RH. And weather is pretty damn chaotic.

If I could explain what causes all of the variations in weather in temperature, I'd be a very, very famous person. I cannot. Nor can you.

A wise person once told me "When it comes to chaotic systems, dammifino is a perfectly acceptable answer".



This post was edited on 2/12 at 12:52 am


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CptBengal
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re: The President's Commision on Global Warming


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Besides, it's not that CO2 stores heat, it's that it absorbs the infrared radiation coming from the surface, causing the CO2 itself to radiate, essentially reflecting a portion of the surface heat back to the surface.


in a dual sphere system such as the earth and atmosphere, the amount radiared by any particle that is contained within the outer set, but not wighin the inner...overwhelmingly radiates to the boundary condition of the larger sphere .

do you do any modeling? you seem lost on simple concepts.






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Taxing Authority
LSU Fan
Houston
Member since Feb 2010
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re: The President's Commision on Global Warming


quote:

in a dual sphere system such as the earth and atmosphere, the amount radiared by any particle that is contained within the outer set, but not wighin the inner...overwhelmingly radiates to the boundary condition of the larger sphere .
4(pi)r² :: r2 > r1



This post was edited on 2/12 at 12:46 am


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LittlebyLittle
West Virginia Fan
slidell.la.
Member since Nov 2012
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re: The President's Commision on Global Warming


"People Warming"?.......that shite made me laugh out loud!!





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Korkstand
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re: The President's Commision on Global Warming


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No, No, No, No. Radiation does NOT occur equally in all directions. The earth's surface is far from a black body. Space is (well, practically). Which has a greater potential to radiate energy away from the atmosphere? The heat is going to go out to space. It's the only way it can go (practically). It only flows one way. Hot to cold. And space as it turns out... is pretty damn cold!

Have I not been saying all along that the sun heats the earth to the point where the heat radiated from the earth is in equilibrium with the amount it receives from the sun? If earth had no atmosphere, it would be pretty cold, would it not? The gases in the atmosphere warm the surface. Explain to me this process, if it's not due to radiation either trapped or "reflected" by the atmosphere.






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CptBengal
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re: The President's Commision on Global Warming


lol, with a modification based on a function of the difference between r1 and r2 as a projection on the inner surface...sure





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Korkstand
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Plaquemine, LA
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re: The President's Commision on Global Warming


quote:

in a dual sphere system such as the earth and atmosphere, the amount radiared by any particle that is contained within the outer set, but not wighin the inner...overwhelmingly radiates to the boundary condition of the larger sphere .

Is this simply because if a particle in the outer set radiates in all directions, it "sees" more surface area of the outer sphere than of the inner? And is it true that the closer a particle is to the inner sphere (but still in the outer set), more of its radiation will reach the inner sphere than a particle further from it? If so, I understand it pretty well.






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CptBengal
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re: The President's Commision on Global Warming


youre also missing the effect of movement based on that heating away from the inner surface, thereby creating a minimum effect for any particle regardless of difference.

but we are only talking about the poor Cp carbon dioxide. the point is that an already weak radiation intermediary has a minimum effecct on the system.

the cru models dont even get close to incorporating this simple relationship






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Korkstand
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re: The President's Commision on Global Warming


quote:

youre also missing the effect of movement based on that heating away from the inner surface, thereby creating a minimum effect for any particle regardless of difference.

but we are only talking about the poor Cp carbon dioxide. the point is that an already weak radiation intermediary has a minimum effecct on the system.

the cru models dont even get close to incorporating this simple relationship

You seem to have it all figured out, where's your model? Specifically, I'd like to know the surface temperature of earth with no atmosphere whatsoever, and also the temp with an atmosphere lacking water vapor, CO2, or any other greenhouse gasses.

Would it be any cooler without these gasses? If so, why? What is the process that causes this?

What concentration of CO2 would be necessary, in your expert opinion, to raise the temperature substantially?






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NC_Tigah
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Member since Sep 2003
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re: The President's Commision on Global Warming


quote:

I think we all agree that water vapor is the main gas that captures this heat, and that CO2 does the same.
Based on your posts, i think not.

The behavior of gas in liquid solution at increasing temperature does not evenly parallel evaporation rate. Further, albedo considerations are totally different. With the mass of CO2 contained in the oceans, were it a major greenhouse gas, the CO2-water-heat relationship would have led to global incineration long ago.






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ScoopAndScore
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Member since Oct 2008
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re: The President's Commision on Global Warming


quote:

no matter how much overwhelming evidence there may be

lol or may not be






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Korkstand
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re: The President's Commision on Global Warming


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Taxing Authority
CptBengal

I am disappointed. I went to sleep last night hoping to wake up to a wealth of knowledge. I should have known, though, since even after my asking several times neither of you has even attempted to explain the process by which our atmosphere helps to warm the earth. Instead, you keep reverting to this condescending "I know thermodynamics and you don't" bull shite. You could know everything there is to know, but it doesn't do much good if you can't communicate it to anyone.

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The behavior of gas in liquid solution at increasing temperature does not evenly parallel evaporation rate. Further, albedo considerations are totally different. With the mass of CO2 contained in the oceans, were it a major greenhouse gas, the CO2-water-heat relationship would have led to global incineration long ago.

All this says is that there are many, many factors at play, and I don't think anyone has disputed that. It is very much like a complex ecosystem, in that adding/removing/changing one aspect of it can change the entire thing drastically.






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NC_Tigah
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re: The President's Commision on Global Warming


quote:

quote:

The behavior of gas in liquid solution at increasing temperature does not evenly parallel evaporation rate. Further, albedo considerations are totally different. With the mass of CO2 contained in the oceans, were it a major greenhouse gas, the CO2-water-heat relationship would have led to global incineration long ago.
All this says is that there are many, many factors at play
Then you did not understand the post.






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CptBengal
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re: The President's Commision on Global Warming


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I should have known, though, since even after my asking several times neither of you has even attempted to explain the process by which our atmosphere helps to warm the earth


this is a pathetic debate technique. Nobody disagrees the earth is warmed fron the atmosphere. nobody disgrees ghe earths mean temperature varies through temporal scales of varying degree.

by attempting to frame a specific and poignant topic in terms of broader comments which are indisputable, you are attempting to then claim some false "consensus".

the fact remains that the cru models do nextt adequately handle three.dimensiinal movement of particles next to a boundary condition with the heat sink properties of space.

since these models ARE THE ENTIRE BASIS OF AGW. the models and tgus agw are not sound science. ever wonderwhy your hero mann never did sensativity analysis on his work before publishing? I know he is doing it now....but that isnt how model building is done.

there was a paper that came out this summer that showed how the cru models never even considered the boundary condition, and tgat such an effect ALONE...may completely nullify the gains from co2 in the cru models.

good grief man.






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Korkstand
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re: The President's Commision on Global Warming


quote:

quote:

All this says is that there are many, many factors at play
Then you did not understand the post.

Here we go again. In that one paragraph, you mentioned gas in liquid solutions, evaporation rates, albedo, the amount of CO2 in the oceans, and how temperature affects the relationship. Sounds like a lot of factors to me (and by no means exhaustive), with no explanation for the assumption that "global incineration" would have resulted long ago if CO2 were a major greenhouse gas.






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NC_Tigah
LSU Fan
Member since Sep 2003
48228 posts

re: The President's Commision on Global Warming


quote:

with no explanation for the assumption that "global incineration" would have resulted long ago if CO2 were a major greenhouse gas.
Do you understand the relationship of temperature to gas in liquid solution?






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