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BugAC 
LSU Fan
Baton Rouge
Member since Oct 2007
13838 posts
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quote:
but without us I doubt they could've won.
Not sure about that. The defeats of the Germans in the East decimated their army. And the red army started pushing back on the germans. The british held off Germany for the duration of the war, but they were weakened by repeated bombings.
In short, it's an asinine comment. You can't say that without American support, Europe would have fallen. Because it simply didn't happen. It wasn't just the Allied forces (american, canadian) getting involved that stopped Germany. But granted, we once we were involved, Germany lost many battles quicker, and their factories were pretty much destroyed and American air superiority completely decimated German air power. So no air power, factories, or fuel halted Germany from making any ground. It was a combined effort of the US, British, Soviets, and the rest of the allies that stopped the axis powers. America was just better trained than the rest.
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LSUTiger10387
LSU Fan
Alexandria
Member since Jan 2013
554 posts
| re: Greatest Military Leaders Ever? (Posted on 1/23/13 at 11:57 am to Breesus)
Hitler was no great military mind, but he had at his disposal one of the most impressive general staffs in military history. I mean he had Rommel, Manstein, Guderian among others. Hitler just knew where and when to strike, he is perhaps one of greatest politicians ever.
I give no one from the USSr any credit they all just sucked. It's like if 20 guys rushed Mike Tyson, they would overwhelm him. Same goes for anyone from Union during the Civil War.
Robert E Lee, Stonewall Jackson, Longstreet and Forrest. To me it's guys that did more with less. Napoleon was brilliant just got too cocky.
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13AMS
LSU Fan
Member since Nov 2010
852 posts
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General Patton, General Middleton
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boogiewoogie1978 
Arkansas Fan
Little Rock
Member since Aug 2012
1119 posts
| re: Greatest Military Leaders Ever? (Posted on 1/23/13 at 11:58 am to Carson123987)
Sun Tzu
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Tom288 
Florida Fan
Member since Apr 2009
16756 posts
| re: Greatest Military Leaders Ever? (Posted on 1/23/13 at 11:59 am to LSUTiger10387)
quote:
I give no one from the USSr any credit they all just sucked. It's like if 20 guys rushed Mike Tyson, they would overwhelm him. Same goes for anyone from Union during the Civil War.
Zhukov says hello.
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Jim Rockford
LSU Fan
Member since May 2011
23246 posts
 Online
| re: Greatest Military Leaders Ever? (Posted on 1/23/13 at 11:59 am to Froman)
quote:
To be honest, the reason Southerners are "butthurt" has a lot to do with the fact that the South was skullfricking the North on the battlefield and just ran out of guys, and more importantly, competent generals.
"Amateurs study tactics. Professionals study logistics." Variously attributed to Rommel or Bradley. In any case, the South could have won five more years worth of battles and still lost the war, as long as the political will remained strong in the North. As Shelby Foote points out, the North overwhelmed the South with manpower and materials, while never at any point being more than about 50% mobilized.
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Froman
LSU Fan
Baton Rouge
Member since Jun 2007
18686 posts
Online
| re: Greatest Military Leaders Ever? (Posted on 1/23/13 at 12:00 pm to Jim Rockford)
Totally agree.
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Spaceman Spiff 
Georgia Fan
Member since Sep 2012
75 posts
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quote:
Two battles
Hmm, can you name more than those two in the ETO? As far as major battles, there weren't all that many - just a lot of "smaller" if that's the right word. But, you are correct - it was a combined effort...at the same time you can't forget the PTO. How would we have we done without using so many resources in the PTO?
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TheCaterpillar
LSU Fan
Nashville from BR via Oxford
Member since Jan 2004
31008 posts
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quote:
Hitler yeah till the Americans got over there
LOL
He lost because
quote:
Stalin
and he couldn't match the sheer manpower of the russians and support two fronts.
Hitler should be automatically removed for throwing away his empire for pride and greed. He made one of the dumbest military strategy moves of all time when he tried to take on two fronts against world powers.
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shifty94
LSU Fan
Baton Rouge, LA
Member since Oct 2010
1297 posts
| re: Greatest Military Leaders Ever? (Posted on 1/23/13 at 12:01 pm to Spaceman Spiff)
Alexander the Great
Erwin Rommel
Genghis Khan
Napoleon
Hannibal
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BTHog
Arkansas Fan
Member since Jul 2012
7123 posts
| re: Greatest Military Leaders Ever? (Posted on 1/23/13 at 12:02 pm to BugAC)
quote:
Not sure about that. The defeats of the Germans in the East decimated their army. And the red army started pushing back on the germans. The british held off Germany for the duration of the war, but they were weakened by repeated bombings.
In short, it's an asinine comment. You can't say that without American support, Europe would have fallen. Because it simply didn't happen. It wasn't just the Allied forces (american, canadian) getting involved that stopped Germany. But granted, we once we were involved, Germany lost many battles quicker, and their factories were pretty much destroyed and American air superiority completely decimated German air power. So no air power, factories, or fuel halted Germany from making any ground. It was a combined effort of the US, British, Soviets, and the rest of the allies that stopped the axis powers. America was just better trained than the rest.
NOPE
our training didn't win the war. In fact prior to 1941 our military was pretty much in terrible shape. We were far from a world power.
our industrial might won the war.
and without that Germany would have won with or without are military involvement.
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TigerFanInSouthland
LSU Fan
Louisiana
Member since Aug 2012
956 posts
| re: Greatest Military Leaders Ever? (Posted on 1/23/13 at 12:02 pm to Tom288)
quote:
And why do you doubt that? Go ahead, I'd love to hear your evidence.
Because we were aiding the British in getting guns, ammo, etc. to even get their men to battle before we entered and the fact that Britain had been asking us for some time also helps.
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LSUTiger10387
LSU Fan
Alexandria
Member since Jan 2013
554 posts
| re: Greatest Military Leaders Ever? (Posted on 1/23/13 at 12:02 pm to boogiewoogie1978)
quote:
Sun Tzu
Art of War is insightful, I always found Sun Tzu to be more pragmatic and common sense as opposed to military expertise though the guy was good.
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TheCaterpillar
LSU Fan
Nashville from BR via Oxford
Member since Jan 2004
31008 posts
| re: Greatest Military Leaders Ever? (Posted on 1/23/13 at 12:02 pm to LSUTiger10387)
quote:
he is perhaps one of greatest politicians ever.
The greatest public speaker of all time no doubt.
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Breesus 
New Orleans Saints Fan
House of the Rising Sun
Member since Jan 2010
15526 posts
| re: Greatest Military Leaders Ever? (Posted on 1/23/13 at 12:04 pm to Jim Rockford)
quote:
"Amateurs study tactics. Professionals study logistics." Variously attributed to Rommel or Bradley. In any case, the South could have won five more years worth of battles and still lost the war, as long as the political will remained strong in the North. As Shelby Foote points out, the North overwhelmed the South with manpower and materials, while never at any point being more than about 50% mobilized.
It also helps when you fight an entire war in your opponents homeland
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Darth_Vader 
Auburn Fan
Wherever I may roam
Member since Dec 2011
5932 posts
Online
| re: Greatest Military Leaders Ever? (Posted on 1/23/13 at 12:05 pm to BugAC)
quote:
Again, disagree. Militarily he was a joke. He basically used his troops as human shields. The only reason Moscow wasn't overrun was due to Hitler's idiocy to invade Russia during winter.
Hitler launched his invasion Russia on June 22, 1941. Ironically this was the 129th anniversary of Napoleon's invasion of Russia. neither ended well for the invaders.
As for what stopped the German's at Moscow's suburbs, there were three important factors.
1. Exhaustion. The Germans had crossed from the the middle of Poland in June and arrived in front of Moscow in October. contrary to popular myth, the average German division was not a Panzer division or even motorized. Most were foot slogging infantry supported by horse drawn divisional "trains" (artillery, medical, & supply). The men and horse were worn to a nub.
2. Weather - As I stated the Germans arrived in front of Moscow in October. The weather was already beyond what we can comprehend in regards to winder conditions. The snow was non stop and temps were well below 0. This is where the fact that most German divisions were standard infantry comes into play. These men who had largely marched across half of European Russia since June were mostly still in the same thin summer issue uniforms which by then had deteriorated into at best rags. They lacked any winter equipment and were freezing to death... literally.
3. Russian reinforcements - While the Germans arrived in front of Moscow as a worn out, depleted and exhausted force. The Soviets, although initially very weak with a thinly held line, quickly brought in massive reinforcements (completely equipped and ready for the article conditions unlike the Germans) from the east and first stopped then threw back the Germans.
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LSUTiger10387
LSU Fan
Alexandria
Member since Jan 2013
554 posts
| re: Greatest Military Leaders Ever? (Posted on 1/23/13 at 12:06 pm to Tom288)
quote:
Zhukov says hello
He came into position after the purges and I believe he was an old Calvary man which Stalin loved having been in the Calvary during the revolution. Again he so much more at his disposal than Germany but had the sense to use it along with basic military tactics. I give him credit for bucking Stalin but I believed they did kill him off. Not sure.
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Tom288
Florida Fan
Member since Apr 2009
16756 posts
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quote:
and without that Germany would have won with or without are military involvement.
How were they going to magically beat back the Soviet advance again?
quote:
Because we were aiding the British in getting guns, ammo, etc. to even get their men to battle before we entered and the fact that Britain had been asking us for some time also helps.
The Lend-Lease program is a very small cog in the wheel and doesn't carry anywhere near the amount of significance required to support your assertion.
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Spaceman Spiff
Georgia Fan
Member since Sep 2012
75 posts
| re: Greatest Military Leaders Ever? (Posted on 1/23/13 at 12:07 pm to BTHog)
quote:
our industrial might won the war.
Totally agree, but as the war went on training/tactics did a lot more than you think...
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Breesus
New Orleans Saints Fan
House of the Rising Sun
Member since Jan 2010
15526 posts
| re: Greatest Military Leaders Ever? (Posted on 1/23/13 at 12:09 pm to Darth_Vader)
quote:
quickly brought in massive reinforcements (completely equipped and ready for the article conditions unlike the Germans) from the east and first stopped then threw back the Germans.
Had we not supplied more men to the allies, Stalin would have mopped up what Hitler had conquered and taken Europe for himself
This post was edited on 1/23 at 12:10 pm
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