England and WC 2014 - Page 5 - TigerDroppings.com

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WarSlamEagle
Washington Fan
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Member since Sep 2011
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re: England and WC 2014


quote:

I'm not hating on him or any of the other players except Carroll, but he's not an elite striker.

Yet.

Again, he's just 22 and has spent his entire club career behind two or three top-level, experienced strikers.



This post was edited on 12/21 at 4:32 pm


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hendersonshands
USA Fan
Univ. of Louisiana Ragin Cajuns
Member since Oct 2007
113580 posts

re: England and WC 2014


Randy is just a dedicated troll. He'll argue for hours about something he knows nothing about, which is just soccer in general.





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acgeaux129
USA Fan
We are BR
Member since Sep 2007
15011 posts

re: England and WC 2014


Man it sounds like I will just never be satisfied.

Well, I never got any real meaningful opposition other than Wilshere and Cleverley, which I disagreed with, and that's fine.

quote:

AND have given you a list of 35+ players who can play a role in the near future.


yeah but most of those guys are very young, past their prime, or suck cock. One thing that's hard to discount is that virtually all of the best English players play in the EPL in any given year. And the best EPL strikers, CMs, etc. are internationalers. England may have a very solid backline, but so does France, whom you laughed at.



This post was edited on 12/21 at 4:42 pm


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acgeaux129
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re: England and WC 2014


Fair enough, I would definitely think he's better than the rest of the guys I mentioned in that post.

And when I say he's not "elite," that's obviously a relative term here.






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hendersonshands
USA Fan
Univ. of Louisiana Ragin Cajuns
Member since Oct 2007
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re: England and WC 2014


I rag on England more than most but I think they're transforming as the EPL transforms. I still think it would help England if some of their best young players went play in Spain, Germany, or Italy.





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LSUSOBEAST1
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Member since Aug 2008
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re: England and WC 2014


That list has a fantastic balance of inexperienced youth players, players at or near their prime and veterans who still have something to offer in an international tournament. There is not a single player on that list who "sucks cock."

I understand you had an agenda before starting this thread, but there will be no answer that pleases you. England is doomed and will probably lose every group match in the 2014 WC. Their fans (which I am not even close to being one - I criticize England's international performances as much as any other on this board) might as well throw their scarves and kits away.



This post was edited on 12/21 at 4:56 pm


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LSUSOBEAST1
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re: England and WC 2014


quote:

I still think it would help England if some of their best young players went play in Spain, Germany, or Italy.


That would do wonders for young players but unfortunately won't happen because of $$.






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Vicks Kennel Club
USA Fan
2013 TDFL Champion
Member since Dec 2010
16837 posts

re: England and WC 2014


quote:

There is not a single player on that list who "sucks cock."

:/

I thought that this was the whole reason we watched soccer. Are they not all gay?






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LSUSOBEAST1
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re: England and WC 2014








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acgeaux129
USA Fan
We are BR
Member since Sep 2007
15011 posts

re: England and WC 2014


That's great and all that you rattled off a laundry list of names. When I meant that there would be rebuttal, I wasn't asking for 35 people. I was asking for a reason to believe that England would be able to have at-or-near established EPL players that can fundamentally transform the team into a major player on the stage. In other words, arguments like the ones for Wilshere and Cleverley, although I disagreed.

quote:

I understand you had an agenda before starting this thread, but there will be no answer that pleases you.


I had my mind made up before starting a thread on a topic and subsequently gave my opinion in the OP with room for debate on a message board of all places? That's uncalled for!! What was I thinking?

quote:

England is doomed and will probably lose every group match in the 2014 WC.


Nah, IMO they will probably do anywhere from about the same to slightly better than 2010, largely depending on what their group looks like.

quote:

Their fans (which I am not even close to being one - I criticize England's international performances as much as any other on this board) might as well throw their scarves and kits away.









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acgeaux129
USA Fan
We are BR
Member since Sep 2007
15011 posts

re: England and WC 2014


quote:

I still think it would help England if some of their best young players went play in Spain, Germany, or Italy.


That would do wonders for young players but unfortunately won't happen because of $$.


Definitely agree with this.






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glassman
USA Fan
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Member since Oct 2008
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re: England and WC 2014


quote:

Definitely agree with this.


Or hell, even to Holland.






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crazy4lsu
USA Fan
Member since May 2005
11631 posts

re: England and WC 2014


quote:

Because that's the only thing really wrong with English football at the International level at least in terms of results.


Have you watched England play any matches the last 12 years? Sure, they've had absolutely terrible luck in terms of penalties, but you can't look at the way they play and think, "This is an elite level side."

I agree that there are many ways to play, and many ways to win the game. Playing like Spain is something only the Spanish can do, and the same goes for the Italian's. Yet the future of the game is clear. It's not any surprise that the teams with the best DLP's do well in international tournaments, since 2005. The game has moved away from pace and power in general, to being a game about waiting for the other team to make a mistake. The offside rule has made teams more cautious defensively. This has placed value on players who can move the ball quickly from deep in defense to attack.

I also don't see how anyone can argue that losing Scholes in 2004 didn't adversely affect England's performance in later tournaments. He's a player of considerable technique and vision. He's only underrated because he doesn't fit the mold of the traditional English AM, who are basically very large support strikers. Gerrard was at his best when he played off a striker, and Lampard was at his when he played close to a target striker. Scholes was a different animal, starting out as a AM but moving deeper in midfield. The difference is that Gerrard and Lampard are direct players, while Scholes plays with more guile, and in that regard, is thoughtful with the ball.






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crazy4lsu
USA Fan
Member since May 2005
11631 posts

re: England and WC 2014


quote:

Nah, IMO they will probably do anywhere from about the same to slightly better than 2010, largely depending on what their group looks like.



That can be said for basically any team. I'm skeptical of Roy's ability to create anything other than a reactive team, and England will be pushed by some very exciting sides in Brazil. Argentina, Spain, and Brazil look like early favorites to me.






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LSUSOBEAST1
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re: England and WC 2014


quote:

I was asking for a reason to believe that England would be able to have at-or-near established EPL players that can fundamentally transform the team into a major player on the stage.


We've already answered this. It's their change in style. English players have evolved over the past 10 years. They no longer solely rely on stamina or physical presence. Very few top clubs still hoof the ball up and down the field. An emphasis on passing, possession, technical ability, patience and intelligence is beginning to develop. That's where you see major differences from the likes of Gerrard and Lampard to Cleverly, Wilshere, Henderson, Rodwell, etc.

Defenders no longer clear the fricking ball every chance they get. Phil Jones, Glen Johnson, Gary Cahill, Leighton Baines, Martin Kelly, Kieran Gibbs are all comfortable actually passing the ball out of the back and having the ball at their feet. This is something other countries have had for years and the English are just getting to.

The midfielders are much different than they have ever been before. The aforementioned players can actually have the ball at their feet, compile build-up, pick out a pass, complete a dribble, pass in tight spaces and put in a tough shift. They need a solid holding midfielder which I'm not sure they've found yet.

The forwards are also dynamic. Daniel Sturridge, Theo Walcott, Raheem Sterling, Tom Ince, Ashley Young, Wayne Rooney, Danny Welbeck, etc aren't traditional wingers. They don't just drive to the byline to put in a cross. They can score, assist, take men on, beat you with pace, play any of the 3 attacking positions, pick a pass, etc. And if that isn't working, they can bring in a target man (Andy Carroll) and cause matchup problems through him.

The current personnel seems to be more adapted to the modern game than previous squads. They are doing their best to mimic Spain and Germany. The PL has had an influx of possession based systems in the past couple seasons and that will continue to help the majority of these young players who will have to have a role in upcoming tournaments. The influx of foreign stars will continue and that will also get the best out of a lot of these young players. In all honesty, they can't be much worse than the previous generation in international tournaments.

iI don't know what else to say. You should be able to see the correlation between the types of young English players and the way the international game is played. Whether or not Woy will manage them well, who knows.



This post was edited on 12/21 at 6:18 pm


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RandySavage
Member since May 2012
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re: England and WC 2014


quote:

In that 2010 Final do you not remember a certain Nigel De Jong kung-fu kick to Xabi Alonso's chest? An incident the referee later admitted should have been a red card


Whether you think that's a red card or not it had nothing to do with the outcome of the game. If he had been given a red there it would have accomplished nothing except to ruin a World Cup Final over a clumsy arse challenge. A huge difference in that and grabbing someone from behind when they are behind you and in on goal.

quote:

Statistics tell stories from games when the scoreline just tells you the end result.


Personally, IDGAF about a story. Who won the game is the only thing I care about. I also don't care how they did it (unless horrible officiating is involved). I know you, and most soccer people, disagree which is really the crux of the matter here. Really my only point is that results are what matter and all this "deserved" crap is total bs. To me, the team that put the ball in the back of the net the most times is the team that "deserved" to win.

quote:

Games are 90 minute narratives. The entire narrative doesn't come down to one incident.


In most sports that is true but in soccer the game very often does come down to one incident. It's the blessing and the curse of the game.

quote:

As for the semifinal against Germany, Spain's persistant use of the short corner allowed them to score late on a direct corner. Germany sent players to defend close to the ball, and it left Puyol open in the box. How very Spanish of them.


Germany had 7 players in the box to 5 for Spain, poor marking and a determined effort from Puyol are what led to that goal. #English

quote:

I wouldn't say good account of themselves. England performs average in group play and the poor in knockout rounds. In four knockout stage games (accounting for 420 minutes of play) in major tournaments since 2006, England have scored 2 goals.


Well three really. They also have only been beaten once in those matches and that in dubious circumstances.

Also, if you want to judge goals scored per minutes played as the barometer then what are we to make of Spain? Take away the goals they scored against 9 man Italy and they average 1 goal for every 90 minutes and have only twice scored more than 1 in 10 knockout games. Twice is also the number they have failed to score in 120 minutes.

Again, I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that. Their formula obviously works and they should continue it. My only point is that it's not the only way to win a soccer match. How different would the perception of these teams be if their penalty records (which like I said, and as you know, has nothing to do with the game or style of play) of late were reversed. Would you then say that the English style is the best?

In football terms you could say a team like LSU or Alabama has not "evolved" with the game with so many schools going to a spread and throwing it all over the field while they continue to line up in the I and run it down your throat and play defense. However, they are both still pretty damn successful with what they do and England can be as well.



This post was edited on 12/21 at 9:29 pm


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RandySavage
Member since May 2012
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re: England and WC 2014


quote:

Randy is just a dedicated troll


From a "dedicated troll" to a dedicated dumbass






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RandySavage
Member since May 2012
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re: England and WC 2014


quote:

That's where you see major differences from the likes of Gerrard and Lampard to Cleverly, Wilshere, Henderson, Rodwell, etc.


None of those guys you listed except Wilshere if he continues to develop and stay healthy will ever touch being the caliber of player Lamps or Gerrard were. I know I said yesterday I don't get offended on message boards but you putting Jordan Henderson in the same sentence as those two legends comes pretty close to doing it.






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tickfawtiger
LSU Fan
Killian LA
Member since Sep 2005
4550 posts

re: England and WC 2014


Until the Brits actually PLAY for a major international title....they will NOT belong to the elite teams...i.e. Spain,Italy,Brazil,Argentina,Holland etc.
It will continue to be well, England can,should or could be....nothing more !
Like I said...the Brits have an absolutely terrible record since 1966 {IF you purport to be any kind of soccer "power"...which they have NOT been } Face it England sucks in Intl. soccer






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RandySavage
Member since May 2012
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re: England and WC 2014


Does anyone say they are an elite team? They are elite in the way that Notre Dame was "elite" for the last 25 years (until this year of course). Basically they are an elite brand but the team performs right about where it should for a nation of its size and resources.

quote:

Face it England sucks in Intl. soccer


If being inarguably one of the ten best soccer playing nations in the world = suck, then you're spot on.






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