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themunch
LSU Fan
Moultrie Ga
Member since Jan 2007
8442 posts

re: AP: Cease Fire Confirmed by Israeli PM


[only] a 414 year Jewish rule.

As compared to the many years of rule of the US government.

Got ya.






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trackfan
LSU Fan
Baton Rouge
Member since Sep 2010
15401 posts

re: AP: Cease Fire Confirmed by Israeli PM


quote:


Then we should give back to the Mexicans what is theirs and give back to the Naive Americans what is theirs and get out.

It sounds like you agree with Churchill. Am I wrong?






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Geauxrilla Ballz
S'port
Member since Jan 2009
271 posts

re: AP: Cease Fire Confirmed by Israeli PM


quote:

[only] a 414 year Jewish rule. As compared to the many years of rule of the US government. Got ya.


What's your point?






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themunch
LSU Fan
Moultrie Ga
Member since Jan 2007
8442 posts

re: AP: Cease Fire Confirmed by Israeli PM


The point is the Nation of Israel was created where it was due to its most natural place. It seems the contention is that the Palestinians have a right to the territory more so than the Jews. I contend they do not. Not as sole heirs.
If they could all just live there and not continue as to try to be the dominant faction it would be most appropriate. They both have claim in some fashion.
Ghandi seemed to believe the Palestinians had sole right to this territory. I do not believe that to be the case.
Just as in the case of the United States, the Native Americans have rights to be here and live and be free, but not that they should be allowed to try and overthrow the United States.
I see Palestinians doing that with Israel. Before the zoning off of territories all those folks lived together. Then fighting and force became more and more the form of taking what is ours per say.
Israeli government fought back to the extent of now there are divided territories or Occupied Territories.






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SammyTiger
LSU Fan
Baton Rouge, LA
Member since Feb 2009
8652 posts

re: AP: Cease Fire Confirmed by Israeli PM


quote:

Who said he did and what does this have to do with the statement that I made? By the way, the early Zionist certainly had no problem bringing their terror campaign to London.


You seem to thing the only way to win freedom and resist oppression is through violent means. I am saying that clearly hasn't worked for the last 40 years.






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trackfan
LSU Fan
Baton Rouge
Member since Sep 2010
15401 posts

re: AP: Cease Fire Confirmed by Israeli PM


quote:

You seem to thing the only way to win freedom and resist oppression is through violent means.

I never said that. As MLK said, "freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor, it must be demanded by the oppressed". The point I'm making is that the oppressors must ALWAYS be pressured into given freedom to the folks they are oppressing, and that pressure can be expressed in many ways. They won't do it out of the goodness of their hearts.
quote:

I am saying that clearly hasn't worked for the last 40 years.

That's not clear at all. The Israelis are no longer in Lebanon or Gaza. But even if it was true, what's your point, that the Palestinians should just give up and accept a fate living under the Israeli boot for all of eternity? Black Americans suffered a lot longer 40 years without losing their thirst for freedom.






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JEAUXBLEAUX
LSU Fan
Bayonne, NJ
Member since May 2006
43657 posts

re: AP: Cease Fire Confirmed by Israeli PM


and are you saying the Jewish people should give up their quest for nationhood after 64 years? (2012 -1948?) If Palestinians deserve a nation (and they do) sure as hell Jewish people do also.

Do you agree?






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trackfan
LSU Fan
Baton Rouge
Member since Sep 2010
15401 posts

re: AP: Cease Fire Confirmed by Israeli PM


quote:

and are you saying the Jewish people should give up their quest for nationhood after 64 years? (2012 -1948?) If Palestinians deserve a nation (and they do) sure as hell Jewish people do also.

Do you agree?

1) I don't conflate European Jews with Semitic Jews. IMO, religion has no place in these discussions. The only thing that should matter is which folks are indigenous to a region and which ones aren't.

2) I don't believe that any religion deserves a state, whether it be Judaism, Christianiity, Islam, Hinduism or Buddhism. I reject the idea that every religion has some inalienable right to a nation-state. As you know, there are hundreds of religions and ethnicities in the world and it's ridiculous for everyone of them to expect state. I'm not saying that Jews don't have a right to create a Jewish state, but that should not come at the expense of Gentiles.

EDIT: Israel must ultimately decide whether it wants to be a Jewish state or a democratic state, it can't be both. For example, the U.S. is a democratic state which happens to have a Chrisitian, White majority, but since the Civil War, there is nothing in our laws or constitution which gives preference to Whites or Chrisitans. Whenever Muslims and Blacks have had their rights challenged (eg. Muhammad Ali, desegregation, Manhattan Mosque, etc.), the courts have sided with them every time.



This post was edited on 11/24 at 8:27 am


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CarrolltonTiger
LSU Fan
New Orleans
Member since Aug 2005
46226 posts

re: AP: Cease Fire Confirmed by Israeli PM


quote:

and are you saying the Jewish people should give up their quest for nationhood after 64 years? (2012 -1948?)


Israel is a nation with legally recognized borders. Ending the occupation and crimes against Palestine does not end the Israeli state, it end injustice.

quote:

If Palestinians deserve a nation (and they do) sure as hell Jewish people do also.


Obviously, that is not reasonably disputed, and Israel is not surrounded by 1 billion muslims wanting to kill them, it is surrounded by several million Palestinians they abuse and turn into resistance fighters.






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SammyTiger
LSU Fan
Baton Rouge, LA
Member since Feb 2009
8652 posts

re: AP: Cease Fire Confirmed by Israeli PM


quote:

Obviously, that is not reasonably disputed, and Israel is not surrounded by 1 billion muslims wanting to kill them, it is surrounded by several million Palestinians they abuse and turn into resistance fighters.



I would say there are a lot of Muslims around who just want to kill them. Palestinians or not. A billion, maybe not that many. BUt a few million isn't unreasonable to think.






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Poodlebrain
LSU Fan
Way Right of Rex
Member since Jan 2004
14384 posts

re: AP: Cease Fire Confirmed by Israeli PM


quote:

1) I don't conflate European Jews with Semitic Jews. IMO, religion has no place in these discussions. The only thing that should matter is which folks are indigenous to a region and which ones aren't.
All Jews have common genetic traits that are customarily associated with race. So you must be basing your decision on culture rather than ancestry. How much success have you had convincing blacks in hte United States that they have nothing in common with Africans?

quote:

Israel must ultimately decide whether it wants to be a Jewish state or a democratic state, it can't be both. For example, the U.S. is a democratic state which happens to have a Chrisitian, White majority, but since the Civil War, there is nothing in our laws or constitution which gives preference to Whites or Chrisitans. Whenever Muslims and Blacks have had their rights challenged (eg. Muhammad Ali, desegregation, Manhattan Mosque, etc.), the courts have sided with them every time.
Arabs in Israel have more rights, and those rights are respected more than the rights of non-Arabs in Arab countries. If you respect American values then siding with the Arabs is irrational. That means it is based on prejudice rather than reasoning.






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Fat Bastard
New Orleans Saints Fan
Paradise
Member since Mar 2009
15622 posts

re: AP: Cease Fire Confirmed by Israeli PM


quote:

trackfan



LINK


LINK






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Fat Bastard
New Orleans Saints Fan
Paradise
Member since Mar 2009
15622 posts

re: AP: Cease Fire Confirmed by Israeli PM


quote:

trackfan





LINK






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sugar71
UCLA Fan
baton rouge
Member since Jun 2012
1392 posts

re: AP: Cease Fire Confirmed by Israeli PM


The Israel Firsters are really dedicated to the point of cyberstalking?

We get it. Every one who disagrees with Israel & ferociously opposes it's occupation/land grab obviously hates jews.

Not too shocked after hearing the place mentioned 34 times in our Pesidential debates & the slob job that clown Netanyahu got in Congress.

Idiots weren't that respectful of our own President when he speaks(like Wilson shouting liar ) because they are angry legislation like Obamacare.


Republicans can nitpick about every penny the US spends because 'we are broke', but not the $4 BILLION (that we know of) given to Israel(who can have Universal healthcare thanks to our billions)

We get it. Now move on.








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SammyTiger
LSU Fan
Baton Rouge, LA
Member since Feb 2009
8652 posts

re: AP: Cease Fire Confirmed by Israeli PM


If the discussion was only about foreign aid to israel, then ISrael firster may be an appropriate term. BUT when you start making comments past the money sympathizing with terrorists, and justifying the murder of Israeli civilians then you get into a new territory.

Also the same 6 posters go back and forth in every thread about this topic. This is cyberstalking we know each other at this point.

SO STFU ya isolationist terrorist sympathizer.






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Geauxrilla Ballz
S'port
Member since Jan 2009
271 posts

re: AP: Cease Fire Confirmed by Israeli PM


quote:

Arabs in Israel have more rights, and those rights are respected more than the rights of non-Arabs in Arab countries.


I have hundreds of family members who are Israeli Arabs, and I am here to tell you that this is a myth.

Isreali Arabs live as third-class citizens and have limited rights. The differences would disgust even you.

quote:

If you respect American values then siding with the Arabs is irrational.


If you respect American values, then you should defend the plight of Palestinian Arabs and not side with Israeli aparthied. This is my whole problem - our governement supporting aparthied.







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CarrolltonTiger
LSU Fan
New Orleans
Member since Aug 2005
46226 posts

re: AP: Cease Fire Confirmed by Israeli PM


quote:

The differences would disgust even you.


No it wouldn't, Poodlebrain is disgusting filth.






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trackfan
LSU Fan
Baton Rouge
Member since Sep 2010
15401 posts

re: AP: Cease Fire Confirmed by Israeli PM


quote:

All Jews have common genetic traits that are customarily associated with race. So you must be basing your decision on culture rather than ancestry. How much success have you had convincing blacks in hte United States that they have nothing in common with Africans?

Are you saying that all the Europeans Jews who came from Europe weren't of European descent at all but of Semitic descent? Come on man! That's reaching, and your comparison with Black Americans, who are only four generations removed from slavery, is nonsensical for reasons that are self-evident.
quote:

Arabs in Israel have more rights, and those rights are respected more than the rights of non-Arabs in Arab countries. If you respect American values then siding with the Arabs is irrational. That means it is based on prejudice rather than reasoning.

More nonsense from you. What fo you mean by non-Arabs? Jews? Why would you compare the rights of Arabs in Israel to the rights of Jews in totalitarian dictatorships anyway? Why not compare the rights of Arabs in Israel to the rights of Arabs in a true democracy like the U.S.? Better yet, why not compare the rights of Arabs in Israel to Jews in Israel? Do Israeli-Arabs have the same marriage rights as Jews in Israel? Do Israeli-Arabs have the same family reunification rights as Jews in Israel? By the way, what kind of democracy builds Jewish-only settlements and Jewish-only roads? And what about the treatment of the Palestinnians in the West Bank, who Desmond Tutu and Nelson Mandela said are treated a lot worse the Black South Africans were treated under apartheid South Africa. Poodlebrain, you try to present yourself as a neutral observer of the Mideast who believes in the law of the jungle, but your posts reveal you as a hardcore Likud sympathizer.






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Poodlebrain
LSU Fan
Way Right of Rex
Member since Jan 2004
14384 posts

re: AP: Cease Fire Confirmed by Israeli PM


quote:

Are you saying that all the Europeans Jews who came from Europe weren't of European descent at all but of Semitic descent?
Almost without exception European Jews have common genetic traits with those you refer to as Semitic Jews. They are brothers and sisters in the same fashion as Africans.
quote:

That's reaching, and your comparison with Black Americans, who are only four generations removed from slavery, is nonsensical for reasons that are self-evident.
There are Black Americans who have their 5th generation living in public housing in New Orleans. A generation is approximately 17 years, so slavery has been illegal in the United States for more than 8 generations. And the more relevant date than the end of slavery is the date when their ancestors were brought to the United States.
quote:

More nonsense from you. What fo you mean by non-Arabs? Jews? Why would you compare the rights of Arabs in Israel to the rights of Jews in totalitarian dictatorships anyway? Why not compare the rights of Arabs in Israel to the rights of Arabs in a true democracy like the U.S.? Better yet, why not compare the rights of Arabs in Israel to Jews in Israel? Do Israeli-Arabs have the same marriage rights as Jews in Israel? Do Israeli-Arabs have the same family reunification rights as Jews in Israel? By the way, what kind of democracy builds Jewish-only settlements and Jewish-only roads? And what about the treatment of the Palestinnians in the West Bank, who Desmond Tutu and Nelson Mandela said are treated a lot worse the Black South Africans were treated under apartheid South Africa. Poodlebrain, you try to present yourself as a neutral observer of the Mideast who believes in the law of the jungle, but your posts reveal you as a hardcore Likud sympathize
My point is that Israel is not perfect. That being said, they are vastly better than the governments of the people trying to eliminate them when it comes to respecting minority rights. It would be one thing for you to be calling for improvements in Israel, but you are not. You are calling for the replacement of Israel with a government that has a proven history of zero respect for minority rights. Desmond Tutu and Nelson Mandela failed to consider one critical difference between South African Blacks and Palestinians in the West Bank. South African Blacks were not at war with South Africa. They weren't armed with military weapons.






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trackfan
LSU Fan
Baton Rouge
Member since Sep 2010
15401 posts

re: AP: Cease Fire Confirmed by Israeli PM


quote:

There are Black Americans who have their 5th generation living in public housing in New Orleans. A generation is approximately 17 years, so slavery has been illegal in the United States for more than 8 generations

I disagree with the 17-year rule, so on this we'll have to agree to disagree. Let me just point out that I have relatives who are living who are the grandchildren of slaves.
quote:

And the more relevant date than the end of slavery is the date when their ancestors were brought to the United States

Even using that metric, you're comparing a couple of hundred years to a couple of thousand years.
quote:

My point is that Israel is not perfect. That being said, they are vastly better than the governments of the people trying to eliminate them when it comes to respecting minority rights

Even on that I disagree. I know Turkey is vastly superior to Israel when it comes to minority rights and even in Iran, which we can all agree is a totalitarian dictatorship, Jews are treated much better than the Palestinians. A few years ago, incentives were offered to get all the Iranian Jews to emigrate to Israel, and even at $50,000 per family, there were only a few takers. Why is that? Also, the late Mike Wallace once did a piece on Syrian Jews in which, much to his surprise, he found out that they were treated better than Palestinians by Israel, and for that bit of truth telling, he was nearly run out of business by AIPAC's foot soldiers and smeared as a self-hating Jew.
quote:

It would be one thing for you to be calling for improvements in Israel, but you are not. You are calling for the replacement of Israel with a government that has a proven history of zero respect for minority rights

Anyone who is familiar with my posts knows that I praised the Rabin government, which was really interested in peace making and bargaining in good faith. Also, remember that Arab governments acknowledged Rabin's gestures and began to reciprocate, culminating in a peace deal with Jordan. Some insiders say that Rabin's next move would have been to travel to Damascus to work out a peace deal with Syria in which Israel would give back the Golan Heights. I deplore the current government because it is a rejectionist government that wants to maintain the status quo. The Likudniks are every bit as opposed to ending the occupation and making peace with the Palestinians as southern segregationists were opposed to civil rights in this country.
quote:

Desmond Tutu and Nelson Mandela failed to consider one critical difference between South African Blacks and Palestinians in the West Bank. South African Blacks were not at war with South Africa. They weren't armed with military weapons.

You can't be serious. Do you think Mandela spent all those years in prison for sittting in at lunch counters? Haven't you ever heard of Spear of the Nation?






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