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re: Crackpot ASOIAF Theories SPOILERS
Posted on 8/15/13 at 8:52 pm to ernie754
Posted on 8/15/13 at 8:52 pm to ernie754
Personally I think Howland Reed will seek out Jon very close to the start of the next novel. Once he heard he was Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, I imagine he personally has personally been marching toward Jon, but has had problems navigating around Moat Cailin. He will present two scrolls, both of which prove he is the rightful king. The first will be from Robb and his bannermen. The second will be from Rhaegar, Lyanna, the 3 Kingsguard, Ned Stark, and Howland Reed. He'll open up Robb's first and refuse it, but the second scroll will leave him for a shock and he won't know what to do.
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Posted on 8/15/13 at 8:54 pm to ernie754
I think the dragon riding would seal the deal for a lot of skeptics.
And yes, Jon will find out some important things about his parentage in the Winterfell crypts. I believe that when Jon first finds out/is told about R+L=J, he's going to be in disbelief and still think he's Ned's son, since Ned would never lie to him or betray him. I compare it to when Harry Potter was in disbelief and angry at Dumbledore strictly using him as a 'sacrifice' but it was much more than that and the conversation dream sequence while he was 'dead' made him realize his purpose.
Not sure if GRRM would take that route but perhaps Jon will have some sort of dream sequence/Weirwood net Bran deal while he's still unconscious about Ned and actually have a conversation with Ned about his parentage and why Ned had to keep it secret: to protect Jon from Robert because Jon was his blood nephew and fulfill his promise to Lyanna.
And yes, Jon will find out some important things about his parentage in the Winterfell crypts. I believe that when Jon first finds out/is told about R+L=J, he's going to be in disbelief and still think he's Ned's son, since Ned would never lie to him or betray him. I compare it to when Harry Potter was in disbelief and angry at Dumbledore strictly using him as a 'sacrifice' but it was much more than that and the conversation dream sequence while he was 'dead' made him realize his purpose.
Not sure if GRRM would take that route but perhaps Jon will have some sort of dream sequence/Weirwood net Bran deal while he's still unconscious about Ned and actually have a conversation with Ned about his parentage and why Ned had to keep it secret: to protect Jon from Robert because Jon was his blood nephew and fulfill his promise to Lyanna.
Posted on 8/15/13 at 8:59 pm to ladytiger118
quote:
And yes, Jon will find out some important things about his parentage in the Winterfell crypts. I believe that when Jon first finds out/is told about R+L=J, he's going to be in disbelief and still think he's Ned's son, since Ned would never lie to him or betray him. I compare it to when Harry Potter was in disbelief and angry at Dumbledore strictly using him as a 'sacrifice' but it was much more than that and the conversation dream sequence while he was 'dead' made him realize his purpose.
I doubt it, since it's the opposite of what Dumbledore planned to do with Harry. Ned was his father to protect Jon from Robert's wrath and had to make it as convincing as possible. Jon will certainly realize it and be grateful for Ned putting his head on the line for it. Although he may initially have a problem with it when he first finds out, in the end Jon will always see Ned as his true father and love him for the sacrifices he made for him.
Posted on 8/15/13 at 9:10 pm to OMLandshark
quote:
in the end Jon will always see Ned as his true father and love him for the sacrifices he made for him.
I agree. Their bond is beyond "blood".
Posted on 8/15/13 at 9:11 pm to OMLandshark
Howland Reed shows up in the first 100 pages of WoW, it is known.
Posted on 8/15/13 at 9:14 pm to OMLandshark
No doubt, Jon will still love Ned. But I don't think he's immediately going to believe Howland right away if he shows up and says, "Hey Jon I was at the ToJ with Ned and R+L=J. Bye!" I think Jon will be in shock and disbelief, then conflicted about it. He'll come to terms with it though and understand why. I think he'll go to Lyanna's tomb and find something near or in it, like a wedding cloak, a letter, or maybe Dark Sister. I still think Bran is going to try relaying info about R&L through the weir wide web or a dream.
Posted on 8/15/13 at 9:17 pm to ladytiger118
If he has Ned's signature on the parchment, then he'll believe it. It may be hard for him and may take some time, but he'd certainly know Ned's signature. Add Robb's and possibly Catelyn's signature to the document that makes him King in the North, and I think he'll believe it.
Posted on 8/15/13 at 9:28 pm to ladytiger118
I think that in the Seige of Winterfell, Stannis and Ramsey are still at a stalemate somehow even after the Northern Conspiracy switches sides, and Howland Reed arrives with an army of Crannogmen to break the siege (possibly in the style of what Tywin Lannister did to the Mad King in King's Landing).
While there, Stannis receives a Raven from the Wall that Jon has been stabbed and won't live much longer. Howland makes haste to the wall to deliver the news to Jon, but he dies before Reed arrives. There, Melesindrie revives him and Howland delivers the truth, but to prove it, he must go to the crypts beneath Winterfel for some reason. There, Jon has a conversation with his "father" (Ned) somehow and receives the letter from the mailman right after the delorian disappears. It says that Doc is still alive, albeit in the Old West, but open the door, get on the floor, everybody walk the dinosaur.
While there, Stannis receives a Raven from the Wall that Jon has been stabbed and won't live much longer. Howland makes haste to the wall to deliver the news to Jon, but he dies before Reed arrives. There, Melesindrie revives him and Howland delivers the truth, but to prove it, he must go to the crypts beneath Winterfel for some reason. There, Jon has a conversation with his "father" (Ned) somehow and receives the letter from the mailman right after the delorian disappears. It says that Doc is still alive, albeit in the Old West, but open the door, get on the floor, everybody walk the dinosaur.
Posted on 8/15/13 at 9:35 pm to OMLandshark
If there's signatures he will believe it, no doubt. But I think he's going to have some coming to terms conflicts with his identity. Jon is a brooding, emo sort of man (probably gets that from Rhaegar 
). He grew up believing himself a bastard with nothing to inherit and went to the Wall, when he was really a Prince/future King all along and potentially not a bastard? I think it would take some time for that to sink in. I think Jon would also wonder if Benjen knew/suspected it and if he had something to do with R&L escaping and why he chose to take the black, especially since Brandon died. Also, I think Benjen told Jon in both AGoT and season 1 that Jon should wait a couple of years before joining the Watch and that he didn't know what he'd be giving up, that he had never had a woman before, etc.
). He grew up believing himself a bastard with nothing to inherit and went to the Wall, when he was really a Prince/future King all along and potentially not a bastard? I think it would take some time for that to sink in. I think Jon would also wonder if Benjen knew/suspected it and if he had something to do with R&L escaping and why he chose to take the black, especially since Brandon died. Also, I think Benjen told Jon in both AGoT and season 1 that Jon should wait a couple of years before joining the Watch and that he didn't know what he'd be giving up, that he had never had a woman before, etc. 
Posted on 8/15/13 at 10:13 pm to kingbob
I think Robett Glover, Wylis Manderly, and the Crannogmen are somewhere out there in the snow ready to fight. Remember, Glover's brother is who was in the swamp with Howland.
Posted on 8/15/13 at 10:30 pm to NIH
Why would anyone in the realm listen to Howland? He has been in hiding if alive?
Posted on 8/15/13 at 10:41 pm to ernie754
He's been with Maege Mormont and Galbart Glover since book three.
Posted on 8/15/13 at 10:43 pm to NIH
nobody really cares about him though. you dont win the realm with a piece of paper or a frogmans word. fire and blood.
Posted on 8/15/13 at 10:52 pm to ernie754
well no one said he would. he'll win the realm by saving it. like stannis thinks he will. hence he is the real azor ahai.
Posted on 8/15/13 at 11:02 pm to NIH
Agreed.
Posted on 8/15/13 at 11:16 pm to ernie754
quote:
nobody really cares about him though. you dont win the realm with a piece of paper or a frogmans word. fire and blood.
You win the realm by saving it. I do think that Reed has multiple papers trusted by Ned and Robb that secures Jon's claim if it comes down to it. But he'll win the realm by saving it, and being Jon Targaryen will help him from the start.
Posted on 8/15/13 at 11:18 pm to OMLandshark
quote:
Add Robb's and possibly Catelyn's signature to the document that makes him King in the North, and I think he'll believe it.
Pretty sure Stannis and company will know Bran is alive by this point when he saves Theon's arse through the heart tree or ravens.
And that's not even going into the whole Davos/Rickon angle.
And I seriously doubt Ned left anything to paper with such an important secret. He refused to even tell Cat, he's not going to just leave that on a parchment that could get stolen.
Posted on 8/15/13 at 11:26 pm to auyushu
quote:
And I seriously doubt Ned left anything to paper with such an important secret.
Honestly, I think he did. Rhaegar would have wanted it originally with his signature before he left with his Kingsguard present. I think Ned found the document and signed it himself and then had Howland Reed sign it as well. Howland Reed was a heavily reliable person to give it to since he knew of Jon's heritage, his place was hard to find, no one gave a damn about him, and he was heavily loyal. He was the perfect person to give Jon's documentary to. I see no reason he wouldn't have given that to Reed.
Posted on 8/16/13 at 1:17 am to OMLandshark
quote:
Howland Reed was a heavily reliable person to give it to since he knew of Jon's heritage, his place was hard to find
Reed being reliable is the main reason I see little need for him to leave any kind of paper. Ned had no intention of Jon's heritage coming out period, it's not like he was going to try and usurp his buddies crown. He was just trying to keep his sisters child safe, not create a secret heir. There would be no need for paperwork, and Rhaegar would have thought he would be back after the battle, not be writing paperwork for who knows to find. He didn't even have a child when he left, how would he be leaving paperwork about him?
Posted on 8/16/13 at 1:26 am to auyushu
I think Rhaegar certainly would have made out the paperwork just in case. The reason Ned would have the paperwork was through Lyanna's insistence, with Rhaegar as her main signee. Rees may have been reliable to Ned, but hardly the rest of the realm. Signatures needed to be on the document.
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