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| Posted by | Message | 007mag  LSU Fan Death Valley, Sec. 408 Member since Dec 2011 1560 posts

| re: Jindal Could be the Anti Christ (Posted on 4/24/12 at 11:18 am to Bard)
quote:
Don't buy into his smoke and mirrors act.
It's too late these people are so outta touch with reality. They think "State Workers" are just the civil service employees they see at the DMV. That's why Jindal isn't including teachers, firefighters and law enforcement. They're "organized" and might sway public opinion by getting the truth out.
| | Back to top | | Bard  LA-Monroe Fan BR Member since Oct 2008 12813 posts

| re: Jindal Could be the Anti Christ (Posted on 4/24/12 at 11:37 am to ragincajun03)
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Again, I stated above I'm not the biggest fan of Jindal, and really don't doubt the above. However, wouldn't those two statements above be violations of the State Constitution?
Yup, especially with his attempt to only effect some employees and not others as well as trying to make it retro-active. About a month ago a private firm from Dallas was contracted to check the constitutionality of the bill (at that time) and found it braking laws both state and federal.
| | Back to top | | Layabout  UNO Fan Baton Rouge Member since Jul 2011 4481 posts

| re: Jindal Could be the Anti Christ (Posted on 4/24/12 at 11:43 am to 007mag)
Jindal is not above feathering his own nest. He's already purchased service credit for his DHH time and is going to do the same for his ULL service. A gravy train for me but not for thee. That little prick.
| | Back to top | | Bard  LA-Monroe Fan BR Member since Oct 2008 12813 posts

| re: Jindal Could be the Anti Christ (Posted on 4/24/12 at 4:15 pm to Layabout)
And let's not forget how he stopped raises but then almost the next day he laid off one of his non-classified employees just to hire them back the next day at a SIGNIFICANT pay increase.
| | Back to top | | Bard  LA-Monroe Fan BR Member since Oct 2008 12813 posts

| re: Jindal Could be the Anti Christ (Posted on 4/24/12 at 4:32 pm to Bard)
LINK
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Retirement ages for select state workers will move up, no matter what has been promised to these workers previously, some with decades of service on the job. No one is protected from the changes except elementary and secondary schoolteachers, judges and hazardous duty workers. Why exempt some employees from the new rules? By separating certain employees from others, the governor is able to divide the employees into manageable groups and sink all of the pensions a little at a time. This session is just step one, but I predict the excluded employees will get “Jindalized” during the next three years.
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One of the most grievous proposals is a 38 percent or higher tax increase on many state employees’ retirement contributions. The massive tax increase is bad, but where will this money go? Not to retirement. It’s going into the state general fund, a shell game. I can’t make this stuff up.
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The Louisiana state retirement systems are models nationwide. They are solvent. Though underfunded prior to the 1980s by previous Louisiana governors, steps have been made to fix this long-term, chiefly by paying down the debt over time similar to a mortgage. Much of the current debt occurred through the “Great Recession” stock market downturn, and this is fixing itself right now. Our governor’s approach is unconstitutional, as the recently released 38-page Louisiana legislative auditor report makes clear. But Jindal is cut out of the same cloth as Huey P. Long, who once said, “I am the constitution around here now.”

| | Back to top | | BigJim  LSU Fan Baton Rouge Member since Jan 2010 1416 posts

| re: Jindal Could be the Anti Christ (Posted on 4/24/12 at 5:13 pm to Bard)
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The first thing you have to realize is that Jindal has zero intent to make the state retirement system more solvent, he wants to privatize it so he can take the $500mil surplus LASERS has and put it into the general fund. Even with that surplus, the DoA hasn't paid its matching funds into LASERS for about 20 years now.
Sweet jesus, where do you get your scary wrong info from? 1. Lasers does not have a $500 million surplus. Depending on how you look at it they either have $8.7 billion in assets or are $6 billion in debt (liabilities-assets). 2. DoA? What are you even talking about? 3. So when the general fund has to kick up the extra cost of the retirements system (from ~15% of payroll to nearly 30% of payroll; compared to the 8% workers pay) that's a cool diversion of funds to you? Screw you health care and higher ed, workers got to get paid! But balancing that out a little so workers pay 11% and the state pays 27%; that's smoke and mirrors. 
| | Back to top | | BigJim  LSU Fan Baton Rouge Member since Jan 2010 1416 posts

| re: Jindal Could be the Anti Christ (Posted on 4/24/12 at 5:16 pm to Bard)
quote:
The Louisiana state retirement systems are models nationwide. They are solvent
The have 55% of the money they will need to pay retirement benefits. If someone only had 55% of the money they needed to pay me the bills they owed, I would not consider them "solvent."
| | Back to top | | TupeloTiger  LSU Fan Tupelo,Ms.[via Bastrop,La.] Member since Jul 2004 2196 posts

| re: Jindal Could be the Anti Christ (Posted on 4/24/12 at 5:31 pm to BigJim)
In my first year in the Senate in 1980, we passed a law that you could NOT pass any bill that decreased the retirement funds of state employees and you had to offset by an increase elsewhere for anything taken out or changed, like a %,per cent. This worked and we used that law to STOP any negative action on the retirement fund for all 8 years I served. Old Rep. Shady Wall always took the leadership in the House and I tried in the Senate, to preserve and maintain the balance of funds. People always wanted to use some of the money for a good reason like hurricane repair that made sense, but, we had to stop it everytime. I wish Washington would do that. S.S. would be solvent rather than shakey.
| | Back to top | | LSULaw2009  LSU Fan Baton Rouge Member since Feb 2008 799 posts

| re: Jindal Could be the Anti Christ (Posted on 4/24/12 at 9:51 pm to BigJim)
quote:
The have 55% of the money they will need to pay retirement benefits. If someone only had 55% of the money they needed to pay me the bills they owed, I would not consider them "solvent."
They have 55% of money to cover all retirement benefits promised to existing workers, but many employees are years from being owed any retirement, and assuming they stay employed long enough to earn the expected retirement. The entire amount is not due now or anytime in the near future, so LASERS will make up the difference through employee and employer contributions and investment gains, prior to any issue arriving. The way LASERS works right now is that each year a calculation is made to determine how much money has to be paid in by the employee, paid by the employer (state/agency), and how much has to be earned through investments to cover the employee's projected retirement based on current salary and their projected final average compensation. Unfunded Accrued Liability (UAL) is generated when these three revenue sources are later found insufficient to cover the costs, usually through lower than expected investment gains. UAL is not a true debt; however, because over time gains by the system offset and replace losses thus reducing UAL, or vice versa. UAL is just an accounting term to reflect the amount that is needed to be addressed through future investment gains, employee contributions, and employer contributions to still reach the intended goal of fully funded retirement. LASERS is completely different than Social Security, as individual members contributions remain their property, and they are not responsible for contributing for existing retirees' retirements. The Unfunded Accrued Liability is in large part a debt solely of the state through its failure to properly fund the retirement system prior to 1988, also called the Initial Unfunded Accrued Liability (IUAL). The IUAL has also grown in large part by the state charging interest on their payments owed on the IUAL, and back ending payments nearer the 2029 deadline (aka kicking the can down the road) with annual payments to date often being less than the annual interest accrued on the debt. The Legislature in the 90s and early 00s also diverted away excess revenue generated by the retirement system that would have gone to paying off the IUAL and used it for Cost of Living Adjustments(COLAs) for retired workers (whose underfunded retirements were also a large reason for the IUAL). Subsequent UALs have arisen due to the market losses last decade, but should be overcome in time by eventual excess market gains (assuming those excess gains aren't diverted for COLAs again. The Louisiana constitution also prohibits the State from exceeding the contribution ration (Employee/employer) as it was in 1988 until the IUAL is paid off (Article X, Section 29 (E)(2)(a)) to prevent the State from passing off its debt onto future workers. The real issue isn't a growing debt generated by current employee's future pensions, the real issue is a growing debt of the state (IUAL) that they have allowed to grow, and for which the Constitutional 2029 deadline is rapidly approaching. Because of the back ending of the payments on the IUAL and underpayments, the final years annual payments could easily exceed a billion a year. The current administration is pawning off the state's past stupid financial decision making on its workers. It will be a lot harder to justify cutting health care and education in 5 years to the public because the State's former leaders screwed up rather than blaming the state employee's pensions. It also allows the current administration to push its agenda for privatization of government functions. Possible alternative solutions to the current pension proposals is to: A: Immediately stop any diversion of retirement system investment gains, other than to be used to pay of the IUAL and any other subsequent UAL. Diverting these excess gains is basically preventing the natural offset to down years and is generating additional UAL. B: Stop generating tax cuts for certain people and corporations (the state owes debts that are growing and cannot keep avoiding using its main method for generating money to pay it off). These decisions should not be done wholesale or at same time, but rather through careful and thoughtful consideration. (I personally hate the idea of taxing just for the sake of taxing, but also disagree with selective tax forgiveness that is not really justifiable) C: Immediately stop throwing money into stupid local pet projects, falsely labeled as economic development. D. Address tax alternative funding sources for paying of the IUAL (other than only a select group of state employees). E. Address un-needed costs and employment generated through unnecessary state agency red tape (when they charge one another for services instead of just cooperating, additional people have to be hired to handle that money changing hands. ) F. Finally, go back to the drawing board on state expenditures and fix the constitution to protect the expenditures that are really important and cut out the 30 years of BS spending that has developed through special interest legislation (local, industrial, etc)
| | Back to top | | eleventy  LSU Fan inner city Member since Jun 2011 1937 posts

| re: Jindal Could be the Anti Christ (Posted on 4/25/12 at 10:00 am to LSULaw2009)
This is one of the best explanations of UAL I have seen, and I have heard a lot of people try to explain it. Excellent. 
| | Back to top | | Sheep  USA Fan Straight Outta Acy Member since Jun 2007 12996 posts

| re: Jindal Could be the Anti Christ (Posted on 4/25/12 at 12:05 pm to LSULaw2009)
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Possible alternative solutions to the current pension proposals is to: A: Immediately stop any diversion of retirement system investment gains, other than to be used to pay of the IUAL and any other subsequent UAL. Diverting these excess gains is basically preventing the natural offset to down years and is generating additional UAL. B: Stop generating tax cuts for certain people and corporations (the state owes debts that are growing and cannot keep avoiding using its main method for generating money to pay it off). These decisions should not be done wholesale or at same time, but rather through careful and thoughtful consideration. (I personally hate the idea of taxing just for the sake of taxing, but also disagree with selective tax forgiveness that is not really justifiable) C: Immediately stop throwing money into stupid local pet projects, falsely labeled as economic development. D. Address tax alternative funding sources for paying of the IUAL (other than only a select group of state employees). E. Address un-needed costs and employment generated through unnecessary state agency red tape (when they charge one another for services instead of just cooperating, additional people have to be hired to handle that money changing hands. ) F. Finally, go back to the drawing board on state expenditures and fix the constitution to protect the expenditures that are really important and cut out the 30 years of BS spending that has developed through special interest legislation (local, industrial, etc)
None of this can be correct, because none of it lays the blame at the feet of the greedy state employee who is making $30,000 per year. They are clearly the cause of this problem.
| | Back to top | | tigeraddict  LSU Fan Baton Rouge Member since Mar 2007 4437 posts

| re: Jindal Could be the Anti Christ (Posted on 4/25/12 at 12:57 pm to Sheep)
I see nothing wrong with raising the retirement age. We hire from a local union. They negotiate a set pay package for hours worked, and internally they vote to decide where that money is distributed (on the check/retirement/health insurance) recently, they had to up their min retirement age from 55 to 60 because people are just living longer to add solvency. How can you work 30 years (25-55) then live to 85 and take out 30 years through your pension? and have a solvent system? Interest alone is not enough to make up the difference, nor is net attrition.
| | Back to top | | BigJim  LSU Fan Baton Rouge Member since Jan 2010 1416 posts

| re: Jindal Could be the Anti Christ (Posted on 4/25/12 at 1:08 pm to LSULaw2009)
@LSULaw2009: Yeah, someone who understands the issues!
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They have 55% of money to cover all retirement benefits promised to existing workers, but many employees are years from being owed any retirement, and assuming they stay employed long enough to earn the expected retirement. The entire amount is not due now or anytime in the near future, so LASERS will make up the difference through employee and employer contributions and investment gains, prior to any issue arriving.
That is, LASERS doesn't have enough money so they are passing the cost on to the state. Which means more cuts for health care and higher ed. The shortfall ISN'T getting passed on to employees since they pay a static 8% regardless of how well funded the system is.
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The Unfunded Accrued Liability is in large part a debt solely of the state through its failure to properly fund the retirement system prior to 1988, also called the Initial Unfunded Accrued Liability (IUAL). The IUAL has also grown in large part by the state charging interest on their payments owed on the IUAL, and back ending payments nearer the 2029 deadline (aka kicking the can down the road) with annual payments to date often being less than the annual interest accrued on the debt.
That would have been true in 2007.
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Subsequent UALs have arisen due to the market losses last decade, but should be overcome in time by eventual excess market gains (assuming those excess gains aren't diverted for COLAs again.
Again, true prior to market bottoming out. Now the subsequent UAL created in large part by that event (which isn't even fully realized yet due to the actuarial smoothing process) is as large as the IUAL. They will never get that back through normal market growth. Remember they have to get an 8.25% return on their investments just to stay even. And like you point out, (roughly) half of the gains go toward paying future COLAs. So what happens is the state has had to double their payments to LASERS. That is money that isn't getting spent on other areas like education.
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The Louisiana constitution also prohibits the State from exceeding the contribution ration (Employee/employer) as it was in 1988 until the IUAL is paid off (Article X, Section 29 (E)(2)(a)) to prevent the State from passing off its debt onto future workers.
And the state is WAY under that ratio and will still be under that ratio even after state workers kick in an extra 3%.
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The current administration is pawning off the state's past stupid financial decision making on its workers.
At least state workers get the benefit of the retirement system. The alternative is pawning it off on tax payers.
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Possible alternative solutions to the current pension proposals is to:
A. aka SB70 and part of the governor's package. But while a good idea, it only really deals with around ~10% of the problem. B-F. aka "cut generic waste." For someone who writes with great specificity about the UAL, you are real vague on where to cut.
| | Back to top | | TheHiddenFlask  Clemson Fan The Welsh red light district Member since Jul 2008 16386 posts

| re: Jindal Could be the Anti Christ (Posted on 4/25/12 at 1:25 pm to Bard)
quote:
The first thing you have to realize is that Jindal has zero intent to make the state retirement system more solvent, he wants to privatize it so he can take the $500mil surplus LASERS has and put it into the general fund.
What in the name of retarded arse arguments are you talking about? Please point me to this surplus.
| | Back to top | | Bard  LA-Monroe Fan BR Member since Oct 2008 12813 posts

| re: Jindal Could be the Anti Christ (Posted on 4/25/12 at 1:50 pm to TheHiddenFlask)
Sorry, I got my LASERS confused with my OGBs. 
| | Back to top | | LSULaw2009  LSU Fan Baton Rouge Member since Feb 2008 799 posts

| re: Jindal Could be the Anti Christ (Posted on 4/25/12 at 1:54 pm to BigJim)
quote:
quote: They have 55% of money to cover all retirement benefits promised to existing workers, but many employees are years from being owed any retirement, and assuming they stay employed long enough to earn the expected retirement. The entire amount is not due now or anytime in the near future, so LASERS will make up the difference through employee and employer contributions and investment gains, prior to any issue arriving. That is, LASERS doesn't have enough money so they are passing the cost on to the state. Which means more cuts for health care and higher ed. The shortfall ISN'T getting passed on to employees since they pay a static 8% regardless of how well funded the system is.
The 8% can be changed, but that is not what is being proposed currently. Employee contributions remain property of employees and can only go to their individual retirement. Employees would likely be less adverse if the 3% was treated like the 8% and was used to fund their retirement.
quote:
quote: The Unfunded Accrued Liability is in large part a debt solely of the state through its failure to properly fund the retirement system prior to 1988, also called the Initial Unfunded Accrued Liability (IUAL). The IUAL has also grown in large part by the state charging interest on their payments owed on the IUAL, and back ending payments nearer the 2029 deadline (aka kicking the can down the road) with annual payments to date often being less than the annual interest accrued on the debt. That would have been true in 2007.
FACT the state is only just now reaching the point where its annual payments will even touch the principal on the IUAL. Payments by the state (on just IUAL, not employer contributions) are set to grow every year until 2029 and the final 5 years are over a billion per year.
quote:
quote: Subsequent UALs have arisen due to the market losses last decade, but should be overcome in time by eventual excess market gains (assuming those excess gains aren't diverted for COLAs again. Again, true prior to market bottoming out. Now the subsequent UAL created in large part by that event (which isn't even fully realized yet due to the actuarial smoothing process) is as large as the IUAL. They will never get that back through normal market growth. Remember they have to get an 8.25% return on their investments just to stay even. And like you point out, (roughly) half of the gains go toward paying future COLAs. So what happens is the state has had to double their payments to LASERS. That is money that isn't getting spent on other areas like education.
Subsequent UAL and IUAL are being intertwined, the largest portion of the systems' entire UAL is mostly IUAL debt and the interest on that debt. If the State had paid more on the principal of the IUAL early on, none of use would be having these discussion regardless of the stock market collapse.
quote:
quote: The Louisiana constitution also prohibits the State from exceeding the contribution ration (Employee/employer) as it was in 1988 until the IUAL is paid off (Article X, Section 29 (E)(2)(a)) to prevent the State from passing off its debt onto future workers. And the state is WAY under that ratio and will still be under that ratio even after state workers kick in an extra 3%.
Actually they currently fairly close to that ratio, but agree if the 3% was done properly (see above) it would possibly still come in within that ratio, but I'd rather see what the state's actuaries say before I specifically made any judgement in that regard.
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quote: The current administration is pawning off the state's past stupid financial decision making on its workers. At least state workers get the benefit of the retirement system. The alternative is pawning it off on tax payers.
State workers are all tax payers and make up a significant portion of this state's middle class, unfortunately (I'd personally rather see more private industry dependent tax payers, but not in the areas our state is currently looking to privatize).
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B-F. aka "cut generic waste." For someone who writes with great specificity about the UAL, you are real vague on where to cut.
Sorry I'm not intimately familiar with every single area of the inner-workings of the state and its tax code. Anyone claiming to be is lying. People who are much smarter than me, specifically in regards to individual department budgets and tax credits, know more details about their particular area/niche of state government. I have no problem admitting this, and have no problem deferring to someone else's expertise in making decisions, that if done wrong, could make the state's current financial problems much worse.
| | Back to top | | BigJim  LSU Fan Baton Rouge Member since Jan 2010 1416 posts

| re: Jindal Could be the Anti Christ (Posted on 4/25/12 at 2:19 pm to LSULaw2009)
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The 8% can be changed, but that is not what is being proposed currently. Employee contributions remain property of employees and can only go to their individual retirement. Employees would likely be less adverse if the 3% was treated like the 8% and was used to fund their retirement.
Yes, that is exactly what was proposed. Anyone that told you differently is misinformed. Here is how it works: Every year the systems' actuary come up with a figure that is needed: the Actuarial Required Contribution (or ARC). Then the actuary backs out an estimate of how much the employees are going to pay. Everything that is left is paid by the employer. ARC=Employee Contributions + Employer Contributions; or Employer Contributions = ARC-Employee Contributions. So every dollar more the employees put up, is one less dollar the employer puts up (that's not 100% accurate, but basically). An analogy: If you and your spouse have a mortgage for $1000/month where you pay $750 and your spouse pays $250. If she (I presume) instead pays $350, you now only have to pay $650.
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Actually they currently fairly close to that ratio, but agree if the 3% was done properly (see above) it would possibly still come in within that ratio, but I'd rather see what the state's actuaries say before I specifically made any judgement in that regard.
I "think" the ratio was about 60/40 state/employee. Right now it is 78/22 (based on state paying 30% and the employees paying 8%). The new ratio with the 3% increase would be roughly 70/30. If it didn't meet the ratio, don't you think LASERS would be screaming about that too?
| | Back to top | | BigJim  LSU Fan Baton Rouge Member since Jan 2010 1416 posts

| re: Jindal Could be the Anti Christ (Posted on 4/25/12 at 2:31 pm to LSULaw2009)
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FACT the state is only just now reaching the point where its annual payments will even touch the principal on the IUAL. Payments by the state (on just IUAL, not employer contributions) are set to grow every year until 2029 and the final 5 years are over a billion per year.
Right. That doesn't in any way contradict anything I said. Now, add to that the massive losses since 2007 and you have a truly crippled system. Of course all of that just gets passed onto the state.
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Subsequent UAL and IUAL are being intertwined, the largest portion of the systems' entire UAL is mostly IUAL debt and the interest on that debt. If the State had paid more on the principal of the IUAL early on, none of use would be having these discussion regardless of the stock market collapse.
The IUAL (including the interest on the debt) is only HALF of the total IUAL.
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Sorry I'm not intimately familiar with every single area of the inner-workings of the state and its tax code. Anyone claiming to be is lying. People who are much smarter than me, specifically in regards to individual department budgets and tax credits, know more details about their particular area/niche of state government. I have no problem admitting this, and have no problem deferring to someone else's expertise in making decisions, that if done wrong, could make the state's current financial problems much worse.
That's a cop out. First, judging by your posts, I doubt there are many much smarter than you. Granted, you shouldn't have to know details to express broad policy priorities; but your response sounds a lot like "tax the fella behind the tree." As you pointed out, retirement payments will rise to over $1 billion a year (that's actually low imho, but we will see). You want to cut higher ed or raise taxes on business? Cut health care or remove individual tax exemptions? Or irony of ironies: continue to layoff workers and not give merit raises. So today's workers will be paying for the benefits of current retirees (and older workers who are about to retire) one way or another.
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