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Scrowe 
New Orleans Saints Fan
Louisiana
Member since Mar 2010
700 posts
| re: Louisiana Snapper Season - State versus Federal Govt. (Posted on 4/4/12 at 11:13 am to CptBengal)
quote:
the argument is on complex habitat structure necessary for larval survival and juvenile settlement. The lack of COMPLEX structure at these artificial reefs has been shown to aggregate larger fish and decreases settlement of juveniles. Providing increased fishing pressure, while simultaneously decreasing the inclusion of younger cohorts into the breeding stock.
I'm telling you, you're out of your element arguing this with me...
Have you been off the coast of LA to see the thousands of rigs that are there? Not to mention the hundreds that you cannot see due to being demo'd or knocked down by hurricanes? You cannot possibly over fish these structures with recreational fishing. There are many days while out you don't see a single boat besides your own. The possibility of "over fishing" these structures recreationally isn't there and yet we suffer for it.
Then there is the factor that most of the red snapper kill isn't even from fishing it's from shrimping. Shrimpers kill more snapper than recreation and commercial fishing combined. Yet recreation and commercial fisherman are the ones who have to take the hit for it.
Oh and as far as the juveniles not thriving, tell that to me when you've come out fishing with a plastic jig and can pull up 8"-12" snapper until your arm falls off with no cut bait what so ever. Seems they are doing just fine otherwise I wouldn't catch them year after year. The snapper may be having problems elsewhere, but it's not off the coast of LA.
Also, I'm not against regulations and think that it should be open season and limitless. The red snapper regulations are just a huge choke hold that need to be amended.
This post was edited on 4/4 at 11:16 am
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CptBengal 
USA Fan
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Member since Dec 2007
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| re: Louisiana Snapper Season - State versus Federal Govt. (Posted on 4/4/12 at 11:15 am to Scrowe)
quote:
Scrowe
I do biological oceanography, particularly fisheries, and statistical modeling.
Your "anecdotes" mean nothing to the overall stock, breeding population and relative survivorship of ichthyoplankton.
quote:
tell that to me when you've come out fishing with a plastic jig and can pull up 8"-12" snapper until your arm falls off with no cut bait what so ever. Seems they are doing just fine otherwise I wouldn't catch them year after year.
Do you know what happens when you quickly raise a fish with an internal swim bladder from depth?
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MoreOrLes 
LSU Fan
Member since Nov 2008
14994 posts
| re: Louisiana Snapper Season - State versus Federal Govt. (Posted on 4/4/12 at 11:30 am to CptBengal)
and im telling you your full of horse shite professor.
One of the scientific arguments for limiting the season and the bag limits was the supposed lack of Adult fish which in turn have more eggs.
Bottom line....they are everywhere off the coast of Louisiana Rigs. They are large and extremely difficulty NOT to catch.
And this crap about over all weight caught per season is BS also.
I hope LA follows the way of FLA and TX and ignores the Federal advisories. An election year would be a great year to shut it down all together. 
This post was edited on 4/4 at 11:35 am
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CptBengal
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| re: Louisiana Snapper Season - State versus Federal Govt. (Posted on 4/4/12 at 11:33 am to MoreOrLes)
quote:
was the supposed lack of Adult fish which in turn have more eggs.
not adults, but fish growth rates never stop, in fact larger older fish are so much more able to keep producing large eggs that they disproportionately sway the distribution of cohorts with their inclusion/exclusion.
quote:
hey are everywhere off the coast of Louisiana Rigs.
you missed the point about rigs being good, versus rigs just aggregating already exiosting stocks, thereby inflating your estimate of what the actual stock is...the relaity is they do AGGREGATE adults, but not so much as provide the complex structure necessary for juvenile settlement.
quote:
over all weight caught per season is BS also.
lulz, why?
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MoreOrLes
LSU Fan
Member since Nov 2008
14994 posts
| re: Louisiana Snapper Season - State versus Federal Govt. (Posted on 4/4/12 at 11:36 am to CptBengal)
quote:
lulz, why?
You expect that the feds can measure the total weight of Snapper caught in any given year? and youre lulz n me?
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Scrowe
New Orleans Saints Fan
Louisiana
Member since Mar 2010
700 posts
| re: Louisiana Snapper Season - State versus Federal Govt. (Posted on 4/4/12 at 11:37 am to CptBengal)
quote:
Do you know what happens when you quickly raise a fish with an internal swim bladder from depth?
From 20-30 ft.? Nothing...they swim off perfectly fine.
Now if I'm fishing from deeper, the swim bladder expands out their throat and you have to use the bladder buster, but I can catch fish after fish on a jig from 20-30 ft.
Like I said before I don't think we should get to catch as many as we want by any means. The regulations should be amended with possibly zoning or a state by state basis to fix this problem. You can catch 25 speckled trout per person in LA and only 10 per person in AL, why not fix the snapper in the same light.
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CptBengal
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| re: Louisiana Snapper Season - State versus Federal Govt. (Posted on 4/4/12 at 11:39 am to Scrowe)
quote:
Like I said before I don't think we should get to catch as many as we want by any means. The regulations should be amended with possibly zoning or a state by state basis to fix this problem. You can catch 25 speckled trout per person in LA and only 10 per person in AL, why not fix the snapper in the same light.
I have no problems with this, provided the models bear out.
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MoreOrLes
LSU Fan
Member since Nov 2008
14994 posts
| re: Louisiana Snapper Season - State versus Federal Govt. (Posted on 4/4/12 at 11:39 am to Scrowe)
Have you ever seen the Snapper they keep out of Destin. Its a crime. But they ignore the feds so why shouldnt LA. Especially since we have the opposite problem.
Bottom line the Snapper Management issue is merely a guise for taxing livestock IMO.
FACT Obama wants Catch Shares
This post was edited on 4/4 at 11:43 am
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Me4Heisman
USA Fan
Landmass
Member since Aug 2004
4454 posts
| re: Louisiana Snapper Season - State versus Federal Govt. (Posted on 4/4/12 at 11:45 am to MoreOrLes)
Anyone who believes the federal government can properly manage anything is a fricking moron.
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Scrowe
New Orleans Saints Fan
Louisiana
Member since Mar 2010
700 posts
| re: Louisiana Snapper Season - State versus Federal Govt. (Posted on 4/4/12 at 11:48 am to CptBengal)
quote:
you missed the point about rigs being good, versus rigs just aggregating already exiosting stocks, thereby inflating your estimate of what the actual stock is...the relaity is they do AGGREGATE adults, but not so much as provide the complex structure necessary for juvenile settlement.
Ok, so let me get this straight. By increasing reefs at a rate that mother nature cannot we've increased the red snapper population's available habitat being they are a reef fish. At the same time we are supposed to look away from this habitat saying, "We're boosting the numbers by looking at these structures because they aren't prime for juveniles." Yet these structures seem to sustain all forms of fish and bait fish. I mean are we to assume that no small fish can survive on these rigs?
How are spade fish, mangrove snapper, trigger fish, and all the bait fish surviving on these rigs and thriving just fine going through the same stages of life as a red snapper yet red snapper seem to be so troubled with this?
This post was edited on 4/4 at 11:50 am
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AlwysATgr
LSU Fan
Slidell
Member since Apr 2008
4283 posts
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| re: Louisiana Snapper Season - State versus Federal Govt. (Posted on 4/4/12 at 12:46 pm to CptBengal)
This thread has some good discussion going.
quote:
provided the models bear out
CptBengal - some questions about the models?
a) Are the models being used mature or are they still being revised?
b) What does it take to revise your models? Who decides and on what basis?
c) What kind of assumptions are y'all using and what are their inputs?
TIA
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CptBengal
USA Fan
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| re: Louisiana Snapper Season - State versus Federal Govt. (Posted on 4/4/12 at 12:50 pm to AlwysATgr)
quote:
CptBengal - some questions about the models?
the models you are describing are several steps in the chain from me. I work on larval dynamics. If you would like to know more about my work, I'd be happy to share.
My results and conclusions, models, etc. go into larger models which then predict overall breeding stock, predicted fecundity, cohort, etc.
Those models are all available from the government for free in their publications. They do not hide the results, data, or inputs.
They are pretty easy to find online.
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los angeles tiger
LSU Fan
1,601 miles from Tiger Stadium
Member since Oct 2003
54606 posts
| re: Louisiana Snapper Season - State versus Federal Govt. (Posted on 4/4/12 at 12:50 pm to Anodyne)
quote:
Louisiana Snapper Season-State versus Federal Govt.
Personally, I don't think the state or federal government should have any say in when women decide to have sex.
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Alabama Slim 
Alabama Fan
2009,2011 BCS National Champions
Member since Jul 2007
8807 posts
| re: Louisiana Snapper Season - State versus Federal Govt. (Posted on 4/4/12 at 1:20 pm to los angeles tiger)
quote:
This regulation is a complete joke. I've been fishing the gulf my whole life and the over abundance of red snapper is just insane. We've been catching way more fish than ever along with bigger fish on average.
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Scrowe
New Orleans Saints Fan
Louisiana
Member since Mar 2010
700 posts
| re: Louisiana Snapper Season - State versus Federal Govt. (Posted on 4/4/12 at 2:02 pm to CptBengal)
CptBengal, are you directly involved with research for the red snapper?
All we see as fisherman, divers and such off the coast of LA is the population constantly increasing where we fish which is at the rigs and sunken structures. Do they have any data that involves Louisiana alone with aspect to our state's fishery versus other states?
Red snapper migrate, but it's more of a north and south (deep to shallow water) pattern unlike cobia which migrate all across the gulf making such regulations more understandable if snapper were in fact migrating as cobia do.
As someone pointed out earlier it's a complete joke going fish off of Florida's coast for snapper. The fish there are a waste of time and effort in comparison to LA's fishing.
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AlwysATgr
LSU Fan
Slidell
Member since Apr 2008
4283 posts
Online
| re: Louisiana Snapper Season - State versus Federal Govt. (Posted on 4/4/12 at 2:11 pm to CptBengal)
quote:
predict overall breeding stock, predicted fecundity, cohort, etc.
Do the current models have a good track record in their predictons?
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mikie421
LSU Fan
continental shelf
Member since Nov 2008
168 posts
| re: Louisiana Snapper Season - State versus Federal Govt. (Posted on 4/4/12 at 4:46 pm to AlwysATgr)
Speak about the difference in snapper survival around structure, compared to other ecosystems with only sandy or mud seafloors. I think Dr. Bob Shipp is the lead on this research? Not trying to flame, but I hear his name tossed around a lot. I think he makes the case for Louisiana being a unique case in the GOM.
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Motorboat
LSU Fan
Baton Rouge
Member since Oct 2007
5230 posts
| re: Louisiana Snapper Season - State versus Federal Govt. (Posted on 4/4/12 at 5:14 pm to CptBengal)
quote:
the models you are describing are several steps in the chain from me. I work on larval dynamics. If you would like to know more about my work, I'd be happy to share.
Please do but try to explain on layman's level. Your use of lofty scientific terms goes over most of our heads and quite frankly, makes you sound like you're trying to come off "holier than thou".
quote:
My results and conclusions, models, etc. go into larger models which then predict overall breeding stock, predicted fecundity, cohort, etc.
What is the margin of error on all of these models that go into larger models? Wouldn't the margin of error compound with a bunch of small scientists like you contributing to a large model? WTF is fecundity, cohort? Stop trying to sound like you're so smart. It is rather annoying.
quote:
Those models are all available from the government for free in their publications. They do not hide the results, data, or inputs.
They are pretty easy to find online.
Links?
Models are great in the academic world, but reality is different. What we see and perceive with our eyes is not what the "models" are showing. There are fish out there in untold numbers. Reality and common sense (as opposed to federal grant funded research) tells me that recreational pressure would have little effect on populations. All the scientific, liberal backed BS in the world will not convince me otherwise.
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Ponchy Tiger
LSU Fan
Ponchatoula
Member since Aug 2004
21219 posts
| re: Louisiana Snapper Season - State versus Federal Govt. (Posted on 4/4/12 at 5:27 pm to Anodyne)
quote:
It appears to me that this is a federal issue and they are well within their rights to do what they are doing. I don't like it, but it is what it is.
You must be a democrat
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Zahrim
Colorado Fan
McCamey Texas
Member since Mar 2009
3889 posts
| re: Louisiana Snapper Season - State versus Federal Govt. (Posted on 4/4/12 at 6:01 pm to Joshjrn)
quote:
My first question is how on earth they can get away with this without getting nailed for fraud?
There are a lot of different fish sold under the moniker of "Snapper" red rock fish for one, they are similar but not true red snapper. So due to that they can call it what ever they want to as there are no real legal definitions with regards to restaurant menus.
quote:
My second is, in your opinion, what is the best way for a consumer to determine whether it's legitimate, both before ordering and after plating?
The only way I know of is by going to a small restaurant that has a constantly rotating menu with a Chef who sources locally as much pf their product as you will have someone who will be honest about the product they serve. There really is no way to know and I too have seen places selling tilapia as snapper.. I love tilapia but if I payed snapper prices for it I would not be happy.
Fish names are also regional. Dolphin Fish = Mahi Mahi. Black Cod = Sable Fish. Oil Fish = Escolar and is also sometimes called butter fish but it is not a butter fish.
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