Started By
Message
locked post

Detailed explanation for why Simon is #2 CB and not TM.

Posted on 7/23/11 at 9:19 am
Posted by EricB
Baton Rouge
Member since Sep 2008
1680 posts
Posted on 7/23/11 at 9:19 am
So you see all of these exciting plays that TM has made over the last year and don't agree with TM being the "nickelback." I would just like to preface this by saying that he would be a good cornerback, but this article does a great job of explaining why his skill set doesn't really make him the best cornerback. Word it how you want, but he's not at NB because that's where we "need" him, but rather because he is NOT the 2nd best CB, otherwise he would be the #2 CB.

I'm simply going to quote this article because it explains the differences very well.
quote:

The first big difference between the two positions is that the cornerback has a extra defender that is always helping him. That defender is never out of position, he never gets tired and when a defender enter his space he never misses a tackle. That defender is the sideline. Any good cornerback will use the sideline to get an advantage. He can push a receiver towards it within five yards of the line of scrimmage. He can redirect a receiver's route towards it by using his body to keep the receiver from running away from it. He can also push a receiver towards it as he is trying to make a catch and with no more force out rule the play will be ruled incomplete if the receiver doesn't get both feet in bounds with possession of the football. The nickelback rarely gets to use the sideline.
quote:

In coverage the nickelback usually won't have to do a lot of full speed backpedals or have to turn and run to cover a Go route (where the receiver just runs as deep as he can). This is because a safety is usually behind the nickelback and he'll be in charge of taking over on any deep routes. This safety is much closer to the slot receiver than he is to the other receiver on that side so it usually isn't in the offense's best interest to use the slot receiver as a deep threat (although play action passes and other techniques that manipulate the safety can change this). So, basically what the nickelback will focus on is a lot of comeback routes, inside slants and out routes toward the sideline. Since this is the case, the nickelback will need to be suited to handle these routes first and his secondary talents can focus on the less likely scenarios.
quote:

All three of the routes I mentioned in the previous paragraph (comeback, slant and out) are what can be called timing patterns. The quarterback wants to throw to the receiver at a particular point in his route. He'll want to do this because the route is supposed to give the receiver an opening to catch the ball and run with it at that point. One way to do this is to jam the receiver within the first 5 yards. A good jam will almost completely eliminate the ability to throw a comeback route. The receiver will be in the wrong place, the defender will be right next to him and the quarterback will have to wait until the receiver is more open thus giving the pass rush time to arrive. A good jam on an inside slant route can force the receiver into the traffic that is around the line of scrimmage. This will create obstacles that the quarterback will have to throw between. However, a jam on an out route towards the sideline isn't going to help as much. It will change how the receiver runs his route, but he can still get to the same point in the route pretty easily. The nickelback will need to chase, locate the ball and get in the way of its path to the receiver.
quote:

The nickelback will have other responsibilities too. When the nickelback is in the game the defense is very spread out and it makes them a little vulnerable to the run. The nickelback is the closest defender to the running back outside of the lineman and linebackers. He'll have to be able to make some plays in run support. In addition to that, an aggressive defensive coordinator will also use the nickelback to blitz. This may be to help with the run support situation, but it may also be used to get to the quarterback in a situation where they need more than just a couple yards (and thus the slot receiver can be covered by the safety possibly with help from a linebacker dropping into coverage). The nickelback may also be needed for underneath coverage when the outside cornerback has to run deep and the nickelback becomes in charge of everything thrown short on his side of the field, which could even be the outside receiver running a comeback route.
quote:

So what primary skill set does that leave us with? He needs to be strong and able to jam. He needs to have good ball skills to knock down or intercept passes. He needs to have good speed in short bursts (as opposed to top end speed). And he needs to be able to chase and tackle a running back or quarterback. These are not all the same skills as a cornerback. The cornerback has to have great top end speed to run with the fastest players in the league on deep routes. The cornerback also needs almost a sixth sense of when he's going to have safety help and when he won't. He needs to be able to get some kind of jam, but more importantly needs to turn and run with the receiver once the jam is complete. He needs to be strong at back pedaling so that he can react to any of the receiver's short routes while still in position to turn and run deep. And, finally, like the nickelback, needs good ball skills to stop a pass. Tackling could be considered a secondary skill since most tackles will be made on a receiver who is busy trying to catch the ball. Jamming is almost secondary. Having a good short burst is secondary. Obviously, the best cornerbacks will be good at all those secondary skills, but one could argue that a player who is good at the primary skills, but below average at the secondary stuff would be an average cornerback


TM is a ball hawk who makes a lot of exciting plays, but there are two freshman that i was shocked with last year that those of us who enjoy learning about the game and not just getting waisted and repeating hype statements about our favorite players saw. 1.) Spencer Ware - I was arguing about how we wouldn't miss a step if Ridley was ineligible and people crucified me. Then Ware gets nearly the same yardage with less than half the carries and it happens to be one of Ridley's best games. 2.) Simon - anyone who saw him cover Julio Jones in man-to-man during the LSU Bama game last year and realized that Julio had just made some big plays on pp7 with the slant route yet Simon, a true freshman, punked him... had to have been shocked. Im not arguing that Simon is better than pp7, but in two years... its very possible... and he'll be in the NFL regardless.

URL to article

Moral of the story: ignore the hype and learn the difference between a NB and a CB.
This post was edited on 7/23/11 at 9:19 am
Posted by BigEdLSU
All around the south
Member since Sep 2010
20268 posts
Posted on 7/23/11 at 9:26 am to
Moral of the story: LSU is DB U.

TM is too good to keep off the field. Advantage LSU.
Posted by touchdown moses
eunice, LA
Member since Nov 2009
6024 posts
Posted on 7/23/11 at 9:28 am to
nice post
Posted by Prominentwon
LSU, McNeese St. Fan
Member since Jan 2005
93785 posts
Posted on 7/23/11 at 9:31 am to
you could have ignored the mentally challenged and just said what's been said for a while now....

the best players need to be on the field regardless of what their job may be.
Posted by A75CADDY
BatonRouge, LA
Member since Nov 2010
315 posts
Posted on 7/23/11 at 9:32 am to
are you suggesting that playing Simon at corner is the best way to get the best talent on the field?
Posted by Jaketigger
Baton Rouge Area
Member since Feb 2008
5064 posts
Posted on 7/23/11 at 9:46 am to
This thread is on the mark. Unfortunately people on here will always see the flare and not the blue collar work. Take Mo last season. Look at how much he was tested. How many ints he had and break-ups, etc. His cover skill were BETTER than PP7 last year and he will be a 1st or 2nd round pick.
Overall PP7 was/is a better athlete and has more upside considering what he did in the return game so naturally all the attention should go his way.
If someone said you will get a Mo talent and ability db every year in your program and you get a PP7 for once every 40 years, I will take the Mo talent level player...
Good players make other players look good. that can be said BOTH ways at the corner spot last year.
Posted by FightinTiga
Pumpkin Center
Member since Feb 2009
20745 posts
Posted on 7/23/11 at 10:14 am to
When TS came in and shut down A&M's WR Fuller after he repeatedly had beaten PP it was pretty obvious he was for real.This move doesn't surprise me one bit.With that being said TM has proven he deserves to be on the field as much as possible.What a wonderful delima.
This post was edited on 7/23/11 at 10:16 am
Posted by LSU GrandDad
houston, texas
Member since Jun 2009
21564 posts
Posted on 7/23/11 at 10:38 am to
great explanation. also explains why PP was so great. yes, bama and julio completed a lot of passes against him, but they were timing routes. if the offensive timing is perfect, the CB will have to allow the pass to be caught (IF he's in the correct position) and instantly make the tackle. bama was on but julio wasn't much of a factor because he was wrapped up immediately and we contained their running game BECAUSE PP could one-on-one with julio.
Posted by ForeLSU
The Corner of Sanity and Madness
Member since Sep 2003
41525 posts
Posted on 7/23/11 at 11:18 am to
quote:

Word it how you want, but he's not at NB because that's where we "need" him, but rather because he is NOT the 2nd best CB, otherwise he would be the #2 CB.


I don't think we've seen enough of them at corner to fully know, but having TM at nickel gives the team a significant advantage because of his blitzing ability. I won't be surprised to see him at corner in base sets through. His body control is off the charts, he can easily disrupt routes and use the sideline to his advantage.
Posted by TxTiger82
Member since Sep 2004
33963 posts
Posted on 7/23/11 at 11:34 am to
Wow, TLDR. Suffice it to say that Simon is better in coverage and showed as much in the Spring game. Didn't need a novel to write that.
Posted by WelcomeToDeathValley
1st & 1st
Member since Aug 2006
16947 posts
Posted on 7/23/11 at 1:03 pm to
Mathieu will get a ton of snaps anyway, this whole debate is dumb IMO.
Posted by Fat Man
Gotta Luv Cov ... ington
Member since Jan 2006
7060 posts
Posted on 7/23/11 at 7:37 pm to
quote:

and not just getting waisted


I think it's 'wasted' .. j/k.

It was interesting Thursday night that Miles really touted Simon, with nary a mention of TM;
confirmed OP's remarks.
Posted by Ace Midnight
Between sanity and madness
Member since Dec 2006
89677 posts
Posted on 7/23/11 at 7:48 pm to
quote:

1.) Spencer Ware - I was arguing about how we wouldn't miss a step if Ridley was ineligible and people crucified me. Then Ware gets nearly the same yardage with less than half the carries and it happens to be one of Ridley's best games.


It is not normally shocking for a RB to come in and impress early - indeed this is THE position to expect contribution early, both at the NCAA and NFL levels. Having said that, I was still impressed with Ware because he was so clearly a more complete back than any we had in 2010. I'm excited about him being on the team 2 or 3 more years.

quote:

2.) Simon - anyone who saw him cover Julio Jones in man-to-man during the LSU Bama game last year and realized that Julio had just made some big plays on pp7 with the slant route yet Simon, a true freshman, punked him... had to have been shocked. Im not arguing that Simon is better than pp7, but in two years... its very possible... and he'll be in the NFL regardless.


Peterson and Claiborne were so impressive in 2010, with Peterson being the flashy one and Claiborne, (the closest LSU has to a prototypical CB) taking a more "Johnny Solid" role, like Mayes versus Mantle, it was easy to miss Simon in 2010 - other than briefly during the Bama game and in the Cotton Bowl. Mathieu was impossible to ignore because his impact was more immediate.

Mathieu probably does not have the top end speed to run with the taller, faster WRs in the SEC. However, I think he has the hips for the position. I have not watched him backpedal much, so that's difficult for me to assess. However, he makes nearly instantaneous direction changes and has excellent instincts and ball awareness. In the short zone, he may have the strongest skill set of any of LSU's DBs. He is the best blitzing DB LSU has. He is too small to play safety. His best position is nickel, as you suggest, but I think he would be a very serviceable corner. His biggest deficit is height, which cannot be taught or improved.
first pageprev pagePage 1 of 1Next pagelast page
refresh

Back to top
logoFollow TigerDroppings for LSU Football News
Follow us on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram to get the latest updates on LSU Football and Recruiting.

FacebookTwitterInstagram