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re: LSU'S last three years...Just a bare bones look....
Posted on 1/12/11 at 8:27 am to LSU Fan 90812
Posted on 1/12/11 at 8:27 am to LSU Fan 90812
if I remember correctly, didn't Nick the Stick go 8-5 and Blow the Cap One bowl his year after the National title game??? Also, that same year didn't he BLOW the Arkansas game and the Sabanizer got very LUCKY at KY???? Just saying
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Posted on 1/12/11 at 8:27 am to LSU Fan 90812
I see a coach who has never finished with less than 2 losses.
Posted on 1/12/11 at 8:38 am to GaryOwen
Karma starts a thread with a personal bias at the end of the original post then back tracks and says it was a mistake. Then continues to defend from a standpoint that substantiates that mistake. GFY!
This post was edited on 1/12/11 at 8:39 am
Posted on 1/12/11 at 8:45 am to Lester Earl
quote:
You can be the nicest coach in the world.
you can be the best recruiter in the world
you can have the most character in the world
you can have the most talented team, on paper, in the world
but if you cant put it together on gameday, you have nothing.
again, its not just calling timeouts. In fact, the biggest problems with those plays had nothing to do with calling timeout. It had to do with our coach and our team being ill-prepared for a situation like that.
This is a honest question from an outsider.
Name the coach that is automatically guaranteed to do better than Miles. ____________________
Posted on 1/12/11 at 8:48 am to LSU Fan 90812
quote:we heard all last off season how the last two years are the most accurate way to judge a coach. now it seems the last three years are the most accurate/relevant. but I'm sure you made a similar post last year that included 2007. could you link it for me?
I'm taking the most recent three years. Because it's what's relevant.
Posted on 1/12/11 at 12:02 pm to Baloo
quote:
I'm not "glorifying" anything. It certainly wasn't the greatest year in the annals of LSU football, but it was clearly in line with the rest of Miles' tenure save 2008. We went 5-3 in the SEC. Look at his tenure:
Baloo, what would you call our signature win in 2009? Wouldn't you agree that every year in Miles tenure, we have had some great signature wins? Usually more than 1. Even 2008 we beat GA Tech in the Chik Fila Bowl.
What about 2009? What was our signature win.
I'll break it down for you, then you can choose.
We won 9 games first of all against teams with a combined winning percentage of 43$
6 of our wins came against teams with .500 or below records(Wash, Vandy, Tulane, ULL, La Tech, Miss St).
the other 3 wins were against teams that finished with record of 24-15(UGA, AUB and ARK). Only those 3 made it to bowl games, where in fact all went into the game as 7-5 teams.
Again, I know you are smarter than "hey look at the numbers!". 2009, on the surface, was saved by shitty OOC games against bad LA teams, and cheap wins against down SEC teams(5 of them, OMG!!).
How pathetic is it that our signature win in 2009 is probably a game that went down to the wire against what would be a 5-7 MSU? Remember that game? Chad Jones returned a punt and then knocked the ball down at the goal line before lowly MSU could beat us?
2009 WAS NOT "clearly" in line with other great Les Miles seasons. Again, you are glorifying it. Look at it deeper instead of just looking at "oh we won 9 games and 5 in the SEC". 2009 was more in line with 2008, that is a fact for anyone that has watched those 2 seasons intently.
This post was edited on 1/12/11 at 12:24 pm
Posted on 1/12/11 at 12:24 pm to Baloo
quote:
Who gives a shite about what ifs?
Those who can't explain away 11-2, 6-2, and Top 8 ranked success after their 18 month or so continual posting bout the decline of LSU football or their lack of faith in the LSU football staff but with "ifs", "could of", or "should of".
Props to the guys here who expressed a lack of faith, but who now have been classy enough to just said that made a bad call without trying to copout with a ton of "ifs" excuses.
Posted on 1/12/11 at 12:48 pm to Lonnie4LSU
Lonnie, dont dismiss it just because you cannot understand it.
Posted on 1/12/11 at 12:50 pm to LSU Fan 90812
quote:
Tell me what you see.
A ton of talent returning in 2011, including a highly recruited quarterback.
Posted on 1/12/11 at 12:52 pm to Lester Earl
quote:I frankly could not care less about "signature wins". Do signature wins count more in the standings? Do you win a prize if you get a "signature win"? The term is meaningless. So, no, I wouldn't agree. Signature wins are for the same people who look for moral victories.
Baloo, what would you call our signature win in 2009? Wouldn't you agree that every year in Miles tenure, we have had some great signature wins?
I care about actual wins and losses.
quote:I didn't even reference any OOC wins. LSU went 5-3 in the SEC. If you want to try and come up with some argument that the SEC wins were somehow invalid, go knock yourself out. But I'll have no part of that conversation. I'm trying to have the least amount of variables. I'm making a straight comparison to SEC record through his tenure. Are we going to argue that the SEC was suddenly a bad conference for one year?
Again, I know you are smarter than "hey look at the numbers!". 2009, on the surface, was saved by shitty OOC games against bad LA teams, and cheap wins against down SEC teams(5 of them, OMG!!).
quote:
2009 WAS NOT "clearly" in line with other great Les Miles seasons. Again, you are glorifying it. Look at it deeper instead of just looking at "oh we won 9 games and 5 in the SEC". 2009 was more in line with 2008, that is a fact for anyone that has watched those 2 seasons intently.
Obfuscate, obfuscate, obfuscate.
I'm glorifying nothing. I said it was one loss below the baseline set in Miles' tenure. If you want to call that glorifying, then that's your verbage, not mine. And I would say that you're going to run out of positive expressions if you describe my description of 2009 as "glorifying."
I never mentioned 9 wins. You did. You were the one whose been bringing up OOC wins and losses, as I've tried to steer the conversation away from that to normalize for quality of opponent. I did object to your presentation of his overall record and said so, but that was using your standards again. When given a chance to explain my position, I went back to SEC records, which I believe are more fair for the exact reason you mention: you can't rig your SEC schedule like your OOC schedule.
I've clearly tried to keep the standards the same: how did you do in the SEC? I don't believe in ever-shifting standards to justify criticism. I belive in having a set standard of what is accomplishment, and if someone reaches that standard, I call it success.
You can attempt to impose your ever-shifting standards which render evaluation meaningless so its just your gut feeling and only those with the proper football smarts can evaluate the coach, but that is a flight of fancy that I strongly disagree with.
I'm a bottom line guy. Did you win? Did you lose? No modifier in front of the words wins and losses. there are no good losses or bad wins. We don't recalculate the record at the end of the season for asthetic value.
Though I would argue if you were "watching intently", you should have seen the improvements made by the team in 2009 setting up the 2010 season. I saw it, and correctly predicted a 10-2 season this year.
Posted on 1/12/11 at 12:53 pm to Lester Earl
quote:Why is it LSU's fault the schedule wasn't as strong in 2009 as it was in 2010? It's not LSU's fault those teams sucked.
What about 2009? What was our signature win.
Posted on 1/12/11 at 1:11 pm to LSU Fan 90812
quote:Why is the last 3 years any more relivant than the last 4 years? Or the last 2 years? Or the season that just finished? Or the program history under that coach? It's not!!! You are full of shite.
I'm taking the most recent three years. Because it's what's relevant.
Posted on 1/12/11 at 1:13 pm to Baloo
quote:
I didn't even reference any OOC wins.
You sure did originally. You were quoting winning percentages from the last 2 years, which obviously include OOC games.
Your M.O. has since evolved since you think 5-3 looks much better.
quote:
Are we going to argue that the SEC was suddenly a bad conference for one year?
It wasn't a bad conference. But it was a down year.
again, we beat:
Vandy 2-10 (0-8 in SEC)
Miss St 5-7 (3-5 SEC)
ARK 8-5 (3-5 SEC)
AUB 8-5 (3-5 SEC)
UGA 8-5 (4-4 SEC)
Is that something to brag about?
I tell you what Baloo, why dont you rank, by season, the best years of Miles' tenure for me. Please buddy.
Or Do you want me to do that math and prove that this 5-3 SEC isn't close to our other seasons with 5 and 6 wins?
You only care about wins and losses though. You don't care that we beat no good teams, like we did in the other years that you are trying to compare this season too. It just helps your argument because "WINS AND LOSSES IS ALL THAT MATTERS!!!". Screw the facts!!!!
If you are going to quantify seasons as simple wins and losses, without looking into it at all, you are no better than these other rantards.
2009 ABSOLUTELY does not match up.
quote:
I'm a bottom line guy. Did you win? Did you lose? No modifier in front of the words wins and losses. there are no good losses or bad wins. We don't recalculate the record at the end of the season for asthetic value.
You are not a bottom line guy. We've debated for years on here about things, mostly baseball. You are not a bottom line guy. I dont know how you can say that other than you think it helps your argument here.
I'll agree, there are no bad wins and losses on the surface. But we are comparing years.
You don't say in your baseball HOF arguments that Player A is better than Player B soley because he has more HRs....Or more All Star appearances.... You never do. Now you want to throw out all variables when we are comparing seasons in football and fail to look at the facts? And that you are a bottom line guy now? C'mon, man!
did UCF have a better football season than Alabama this year? Hey, they won 11 games to Bama's 10 games. that's all I care about is wins and losses.....RIght?
s Jamie Moyer a better pitcher than Pedro Martinez? I mean, he has more wins. Or are you only a bottom line guy and throw out all variables in football discussions?
This post was edited on 1/12/11 at 1:18 pm
Posted on 1/12/11 at 1:19 pm to Lester Earl
Thank you.
Posted on 1/12/11 at 1:38 pm to Lester Earl
Lester earl owning this thread 
Posted on 1/12/11 at 2:18 pm to Lester Earl
quote:
You sure did originally. You were quoting winning percentages from the last 2 years, which obviously include OOC games.
Here's my first post in this thread:
quote:
Yes, to move the goalposts and keep criticizing Miles for having a mediocre team in 2008, the only one of his tenure. This is the same logic that allowed people to go on about 8-8 in the last two years all last offseason.
Well, let's use the same metric if that's such a good one: LSU is 11-5 in the last two years. That's pretty darn good.
Oops. I have been trying to keep it on SEC records since my first post in this thread. I did mention overall records because YOU did, and I objected to how you misleadingly presented the data. and then I brought it back to SEC records for the reasons already mentioned.
Apology accepted.
quote:Well, as I said earlier, it won't go down in the annals of LSU history, but yeah... there's braggable material there.
Is that something to brag about?
quote:Yes, I would. Asking me to line things up without scale is also misleading. Order these numbers in order: 5 4 3 9 2
Or Do you want me to do that math and prove that this 5-3 SEC isn't close to our other seasons with 5 and 6 wins?
Using you logic, 5 is closer in value to 9 than 2.
quote:No, its because I want objective criteria to rate his performance. I don't objetc to criticism of Miles, I object to the ever-shifting standards of the criticism. Coaches get hired and fired on wins and losses. I'm sorry, but that is the fact.
You don't care that we beat no good teams, like we did in the other years that you are trying to compare this season too. It just helps your argument because "WINS AND LOSSES IS ALL THAT MATTERS!!!". Screw the facts!!!!
And I'm not ignoring facts, I just choose to think the ones you are bringing up are either irrelevant or not as big of a deal as you insist.
quote:Are you seriously going to argue that in baseball arguments I oppose objective measurements? I'm one of the biggest fans of using the statistical record instead of our lying eyes.
You are not a bottom line guy. We've debated for years on here about things, mostly baseball. You are not a bottom line guy. I dont know how you can say that other than you think it helps your argument here.
quote:But that's because we're not comparing Player A to Player B. And I absolutely believe in context, which is why we're looking at SEC records, to provide that context. I look at the numbers that matter, but I certainly don't say Player A was better than Player B because he had more "significant" home runs. I don't rate the home runs. McGwire doesn't get bonus points for crushing the ball 50 feet over the fence. It counts the same.
You don't say in your baseball HOF arguments that Player A is better than Player B soley because he has more HRs....Or more All Star appearances.... You never do. Now you want to throw out all variables when we are comparing seasons in football and fail to look at the facts? And that you are a bottom line guy now? C'mon, man!
quote:Way to misrepresent an argument! We're not comparing Miles to another coach, we're looking at his performance at LSU. So, if you asked, did the UCF coach did a good job this season? And I'd say, 10 wins and conference title... certainly he did. For those are objective criteria. We don't need to get into the relative strength of schools, because we're only looking at LSU. I care if LSU wins. We absolutely can argue "what is the level of winning which constitutes succes at LSU", but that is not your argument. Your argument is that the wins he has acheived aren't impressive enough. Not the total, but how they were acheived.
did UCF have a better football season than Alabama this year? Hey, they won 11 games to Bama's 10 games. that's all I care about is wins and losses.....RIght?
quote:Well, a pitcher doesn't have much control whether he wins or loses. A coach absolutely IS judged on his wins and losses. That's the data we have. And once again, we're not comparing Miles to anyone. We're looking at his performance, not making a comp. If the question was: is Jamie Moyer a great pitcher? I would look at his actual accomplishments to determine an answer. I wouldn't talk about how his fastball looks (slow). I'd talk about how successful he was or wasn't.
s Jamie Moyer a better pitcher than Pedro Martinez? I mean, he has more wins. Or are you only a bottom line guy and throw out all variables in football discussions?
Posted on 1/12/11 at 4:09 pm to Baloo
quote:
Oops. I have been trying to keep it on SEC records since my first post in this thread. I did mention overall records because YOU did, and I objected to how you misleadingly presented the data. and then I brought it back to SEC records for the reasons already mentioned.
Apology accepted.
Baloo, I haven't read all your posts in this thread. Just the ones directed at me. Which started off with combining years 2009 and 2010 as a whole and coming up with a winning %. Nothing to apologize for.
quote:
Way to misrepresent an argument! We're not comparing Miles to another coach, we're looking at his performance at LSU. So, if you asked, did the UCF coach did a good job this season? And I'd say, 10 wins and conference title... certainly he did. For those are objective criteria. We don't need to get into the relative strength of schools, because we're only looking at LSU. I care if LSU wins. We absolutely can argue "what is the level of winning which constitutes succes at LSU", but that is not your argument. Your argument is that the wins he has acheived aren't impressive enough. Not the total, but how they were acheived.
You have said 10x's in this thread a win is a win.
Why does it matter if its UCF or LSU, if the opponent does not matter?
You have thrown EVERY other outside variable out of the equation already by your statements. A win is a win is a win is a win is a win is a win is a win.
I am saying you absolutely have to judge the quality of the opponent.
Unless you are agreeing with me, you have no feet to stand on here.
UCF's 11 win season is better than Bama's 10 win season. A win is a win, that's all that matters. And UCF won more than Bama did.
quote:
And once again, we're not comparing Miles to anyone. We're looking at his performance, not making a comp. I
Have you not been comparing Miles SEC records by year to one another?
Do you not realize by saying his 2009 SEC season is equal to the rest of his great seasons, that you are comparing them all?
Things change year to year dude. Even in the SEC. Ole Miss was 0-8 in the conf a few years ago. Miss St was a cellar dweller. UGA was good a few years ago and playing in sugar bowls. Now they arent good. Same with Tenn.
To act like there can be no outside variable to determine his success other than wins if foolish.
Posted on 1/12/11 at 4:16 pm to Lester Earl
quote:
But shite, you dont come to LSU to play in the cotton bowl.
Huh? Someone actually typed this out loud??
Posted on 1/12/11 at 4:23 pm to Lester Earl
quote:The opponent does matter, which is why I've thrown out OOC games, so we're not looking at games in which LSU can manipulate their schedule into rent a wins.
Why does it matter if its UCF or LSU, if the opponent does not matter?
quote:But we're looking at overall SEC performance. Teams go up and down, but the SEC's quality has been pretty constant. I have not argued "he beat Team X so therefore he was successful." I'm looking at how he did against the SEC, the toughest conference in the land, on a year-in, year-out basis. Unless you're arguing that the SEC's quality suddenly dipped for one year and one year only. But you have not made that argument, and in fact, given the chance to make it, you backed down from it.
Things change year to year dude. Even in the SEC. Ole Miss was 0-8 in the conf a few years ago. Miss St was a cellar dweller. UGA was good a few years ago and playing in sugar bowls. Now they arent good. Same with Tenn.
The reason, from the beginning, i've been trying to use just the SEC schedule is that it removes the variance of strength of schedule. The SEC schedule LSU plays is roughly the same each year in overall quality.
Given that roughly similar quality in SOS, I then compare his record. I'm not giving style points, I'm trying to use objective criteria, and you're trying to make the Chewbacca defense. The UCF-Bama example is just a misrepresentation of my argument, as it literally does the OPPOSITE of my intent. It goes against the exact reason I used SEC records from year to year.
We don't judge coaches on one game, it's the overall record. Saban once lost to UAB, it does not make him a bad coach. Using you're "significant win" argument, LSU could go 1-11, but be considered succesful if the one win was against Florida or Bama. That's absurd. It's the totality of the record.
Posted on 1/12/11 at 4:37 pm to Baloo
Well I posted the records of the teams we beat that year. Not one had a % over .500 the SEC is always competitive but you just can't say that and close the book. That was a poor year in terms of quality of wins compared to the other years you are lumping them with.
And I never said 1 signature win makes a season. Come on. I said all those other years had signature wins when this season had none. That doesn't make a season, but when you are talking quality, it's a factor.
What you are saying to me is like me saying Curtis Martin 1000 yard season @5.2 YPC is the same as his 1000 yard season at 3.8 YPC. "Hey, those season are equal!! 1000 yards is 1000 yards! He is the same RB!" when we both know those aren't equal. Stop dismissing the obvious variables
And I never said 1 signature win makes a season. Come on. I said all those other years had signature wins when this season had none. That doesn't make a season, but when you are talking quality, it's a factor.
What you are saying to me is like me saying Curtis Martin 1000 yard season @5.2 YPC is the same as his 1000 yard season at 3.8 YPC. "Hey, those season are equal!! 1000 yards is 1000 yards! He is the same RB!" when we both know those aren't equal. Stop dismissing the obvious variables
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