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Message
Paging Aubie101 re: "Once saved always saved"
Posted on 11/14/23 at 12:23 am
Posted on 11/14/23 at 12:23 am
For those of you who undoubtedly browsed here out of curiosity or boredom, this a reply to Aubie101 regarding a discussion in the memes thread... Just trying to not derail that thread further.
i think Im following the convo here but correct me if I'm wrong.
Reading back I'm guessing this is an attempt at a gotcha for "once saved always saved," but my answer is...
if Hitler was saved when he was 20 and had a true relationship with Christ he wouldn't have any desire to genocide a race of people.
That being said...
When James said "I do the things I don't want to do" he's stating a lot more than what's on the surface. it's implying conviction and remorse. Things Hitler showed no sign of.
IMO you pointing to Romans 11:22 is kind of crazy. IMO The verse/chapter is more of a warning against "never saved, always lost" than some sort of indictment against "once saved always saved." They're cut off from the kindness of God for being unbelievers. Belief is the only path to salvation. So, to me, it's saying they're cut off because they aren't saved. Which is pointing to the fact that there is absolutely a point when you will lose your OPPORTUNITY/mindset to seek salvation. Usually this lost opportunity is death. sometimes God "gives up" on you and gives you over to a depraved mind (this is when remorse and conviction go bye bye - Hitler?) . It's a warning that time is ticking but He's waiting to graft you back into the tree if you seek Him and throw off your unbelief.
Romans? ?11:23? ?NIV??
[23] And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
Also. I had admittedly never heard of the concept of Sola Scriptura (I mean.. yes I 100 percent adhere to this principle.. I just didn't know it had a name). so I looked it up. If the Bible is not the only authority, what are the others? Who decided they were authorities? and even if they were some how ordained truth, how could they possibly contradict the Bible instead of reinforcing it?
i think Im following the convo here but correct me if I'm wrong.
quote:
So if Hitler gave his life to Christ when he was 20 he is saved? I know your next answer before you write it.
Reading back I'm guessing this is an attempt at a gotcha for "once saved always saved," but my answer is...
if Hitler was saved when he was 20 and had a true relationship with Christ he wouldn't have any desire to genocide a race of people.
That being said...
When James said "I do the things I don't want to do" he's stating a lot more than what's on the surface. it's implying conviction and remorse. Things Hitler showed no sign of.
IMO you pointing to Romans 11:22 is kind of crazy. IMO The verse/chapter is more of a warning against "never saved, always lost" than some sort of indictment against "once saved always saved." They're cut off from the kindness of God for being unbelievers. Belief is the only path to salvation. So, to me, it's saying they're cut off because they aren't saved. Which is pointing to the fact that there is absolutely a point when you will lose your OPPORTUNITY/mindset to seek salvation. Usually this lost opportunity is death. sometimes God "gives up" on you and gives you over to a depraved mind (this is when remorse and conviction go bye bye - Hitler?) . It's a warning that time is ticking but He's waiting to graft you back into the tree if you seek Him and throw off your unbelief.
Romans? ?11:23? ?NIV??
[23] And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
Also. I had admittedly never heard of the concept of Sola Scriptura (I mean.. yes I 100 percent adhere to this principle.. I just didn't know it had a name). so I looked it up. If the Bible is not the only authority, what are the others? Who decided they were authorities? and even if they were some how ordained truth, how could they possibly contradict the Bible instead of reinforcing it?
This post was edited on 11/14/23 at 12:47 am
21
Posted on 11/14/23 at 12:46 am to tgerb8
This isn't the Religion Board
In fact, we don't have a religion board
nvm, forget I said anything
In fact, we don't have a religion board
nvm, forget I said anything
Posted on 11/14/23 at 1:13 am to tgerb8
OSAS depends on the No True Scotsman fallacy. If someone professes Christ and falls away, qed they were never truly saved in the first place.
And I adhere to OSAS. But I acknowledge there's a gaping hole in the logic of it that my imperfect human understanding can't reconcile. I used to run myself in circles with these questions. Now I leave them to the theologians and try to keep my faith as simple as possible.
And I adhere to OSAS. But I acknowledge there's a gaping hole in the logic of it that my imperfect human understanding can't reconcile. I used to run myself in circles with these questions. Now I leave them to the theologians and try to keep my faith as simple as possible.
Posted on 11/14/23 at 3:33 am to tgerb8
All were saved when Jesus hung on the cross. Now what we do with that salvation depends on what we do with free will. Do we accept Christ’s saving message and walk with him or not?
Sola Scriptura is bunk. Even Paul says to also rely on sacred tradition. There wasn’t “scripture” for about 300 years of the early church, just competing texts of people’s notes and stories about Jesus. Thanks to the Catholic Church scripture/the Bible was born.
Sola Scriptura is bunk. Even Paul says to also rely on sacred tradition. There wasn’t “scripture” for about 300 years of the early church, just competing texts of people’s notes and stories about Jesus. Thanks to the Catholic Church scripture/the Bible was born.
Posted on 11/14/23 at 4:33 am to tgerb8
quote:
if Hitler was saved when he was 20 and had a true relationship with Christ he wouldn't have any desire to genocide a race of people.
You sure?
Deuteronomy 20
quote:
16But in the cities of these peoples that the LORD your God is giving you for an inheritance, you shall save alive nothing that breathes, 17but you shall devote them to complete destruction, the Hittites and the Amorites, the Canaanites and the Perizzites, the Hivites and the Jebusites, as the LORD your God has commanded
Posted on 11/14/23 at 5:58 am to tgerb8
If Hitler had been truly saved at age 20, he would not have done what he did.
Posted on 11/14/23 at 6:34 am to tgerb8
quote:
If the Bible is not the only authority, what are the others? Who decided they were authorities? and even if they were some how ordained truth, how could they possibly contradict the Bible instead of reinforcing it?
Voddie on why he believes the Bible
Posted on 11/14/23 at 6:57 am to tgerb8
Great response in the original post! Agree completely that if Hitler had a genuine relationship with Christ then hatred would not be possible. It is written that the fruits of the spirit are love, patience, kindness, joy and peace. These fruits become evident in our daily walk when we are rooted in faith of Jesus Christ!
Posted on 11/14/23 at 6:59 am to tgerb8
quote:
When James said
Paul. Romans 7.
Posted on 11/14/23 at 7:39 am to tgerb8
quote:Boom. This is it. Drop the mic.
if Hitler was saved when he was 20 and had a true relationship with Christ he wouldn't have any desire to genocide a race of people.
Posted on 11/14/23 at 7:44 am to tgerb8
The “once” will take care of the “always”…
Spiritual rebirth is followed by fruits of the spirit.
Hence Matthew Chapter 18 gives instructions on how to banish an individual that doesn’t demonstrate Christian character.
1 John 2:19 tells us that heretics left the church but were never really of the church.
That’s why Jesus said in Matthew 7:23 depart from me, I never knew you.
Spiritual rebirth is followed by fruits of the spirit.
Hence Matthew Chapter 18 gives instructions on how to banish an individual that doesn’t demonstrate Christian character.
1 John 2:19 tells us that heretics left the church but were never really of the church.
That’s why Jesus said in Matthew 7:23 depart from me, I never knew you.
Posted on 11/14/23 at 9:13 am to tgerb8
Once saved always saved is the same lie told in the Garden...
Posted on 11/14/23 at 9:59 am to tgerb8
Topics on Religion should be fine over on the Off Topic Lounge, since Religion is not Politics.
This thread does not belong here on PT.
This thread does not belong here on PT.
Posted on 11/14/23 at 10:25 am to tgerb8
It has never made sense to me the Protestant argument of sola scriptura. The entire Bible is a guide to how we should live our lives. Then they say all we need is faith alone. My question is, why would Jesus preach for 3 years about how we can live our life to be closer with God if all we needed was to believe he rose from to the dead to be saved? It logically doesn't make any sense at all.
Posted on 11/14/23 at 11:11 am to tgerb8
quote:
For those of you who undoubtedly browsed here out of curiosity or boredom, this a reply to Aubie101 regarding a discussion in the memes thread... Just trying to not derail that thread further. i think Im following the convo here but correct me if I'm wrong.
quote:So if Hitler gave his life to Christ when he was 20 he is saved? I know your next answer before you write it.
Reading back I'm guessing this is an attempt at a gotcha for "once saved always saved," but my answer is... if Hitler was saved when he was 20 and had a true relationship with Christ he wouldn't have any desire to genocide a race of people.
That being said... When James said "I do the things I don't want to do" he's stating a lot more than what's on the surface. it's implying conviction and remorse. Things Hitler showed no sign of.
There's no way any person who has received the gift of Salvation, who believes Christ died for their sins and received the Holy Spirit is going to believe it's moral and proper to facilitate the murder of millions of Jews.
Posted on 11/14/23 at 11:24 am to tgerb8
By thy deeds, so shall he know thee.
Posted on 11/14/23 at 5:44 pm to tgerb8
quote:
Once saved always saved
I don’t like the term, but I do adhere to this position. I prefer the terms,” if truly saved, always saved” or “ the security of the believer.”
If a truly saved person can lose his salvation based on things he does or doesn’t do, this means he is the one actually keeping himself saved by his works.
The Bible says that Jesus is the author and finisher or our faith. And Jesus says we are in his hand, inside the Father’s hand, and no one can pluck us out.
This post was edited on 11/14/23 at 5:45 pm
Posted on 11/14/23 at 5:45 pm to tgerb8
The vine and the branches, John 15, doesn't seem like it is compatible with once saved always saved.
Jesus is the vine and we are the branches. If we understand that by our baptisms we are made into the body of Christ, in the case of the parable the branch is united with Christ the vine. However it says those who do not bear fruit are cut off and cast into the fire. So those who were in the body of Christ, or the vine, are cut off from his body and cast into the fire.
Secondly Philippians 2:12 work on your salvation with fear and trembling. Doesn't sound like when I'm saved I don't have to worry about my salvation anymore.
Another passage that doesn't make sense with once saved always saved is Galatians 5:4. How can you be severed from Christ if you are always saved? How can we fall from grace if we can't lose our salvation?
One more thing
I think there is a difference in Hope and Assurance.
I have hope that Jesus will save me from eternal punishment when I die.
however I don't have assurance that he will save me, because I could reject him by my sin before I die, without a repent heart at my death, I could go to hell. Even though I was baptized and my sins forgiven many times by God through the sacrament of penance.
Jesus is the vine and we are the branches. If we understand that by our baptisms we are made into the body of Christ, in the case of the parable the branch is united with Christ the vine. However it says those who do not bear fruit are cut off and cast into the fire. So those who were in the body of Christ, or the vine, are cut off from his body and cast into the fire.
Secondly Philippians 2:12 work on your salvation with fear and trembling. Doesn't sound like when I'm saved I don't have to worry about my salvation anymore.
Another passage that doesn't make sense with once saved always saved is Galatians 5:4. How can you be severed from Christ if you are always saved? How can we fall from grace if we can't lose our salvation?
One more thing
I think there is a difference in Hope and Assurance.
I have hope that Jesus will save me from eternal punishment when I die.
however I don't have assurance that he will save me, because I could reject him by my sin before I die, without a repent heart at my death, I could go to hell. Even though I was baptized and my sins forgiven many times by God through the sacrament of penance.
This post was edited on 11/14/23 at 5:49 pm
Posted on 11/14/23 at 10:14 pm to tgerb8
Here is the thing…a genuine salvation experience is referred to in past tense for a reason. The Holy Spirit comes in, you are sealed by the Holy Spirit in essence, and he would prevent someone from “backsliding” beyond the point of salvation loss. My contention is nobody, save for a mental illness that happens post salvation, would bear certain types of fruit. The Bible clearly states that once a person is a new creature in Christ, they will NOT be plucked from the Lord’s hand.
Now can one sin excessively post salvation and sin unto death? Yes. But the unpardonable sin is to reject the Holy Spirit’s call on the heart to accept Christ as Lord and Savior. Everything else can be forgiven and most likely would NEVER happen in the fist place. I noticed your OP pulled out the Hitler card…when that is the starting point to prove a point, one of the most extreme examples which can be used. You’re already on shaky ground with your argument…if you are arguing against “once genuinely saved, always saved”.
Now can one sin excessively post salvation and sin unto death? Yes. But the unpardonable sin is to reject the Holy Spirit’s call on the heart to accept Christ as Lord and Savior. Everything else can be forgiven and most likely would NEVER happen in the fist place. I noticed your OP pulled out the Hitler card…when that is the starting point to prove a point, one of the most extreme examples which can be used. You’re already on shaky ground with your argument…if you are arguing against “once genuinely saved, always saved”.
Posted on 11/15/23 at 11:29 pm to tgerb8
I just finished reading the posts on this thread. Wow. Hey guys- way to go… turning tigrb8’s sincere quest for the assurance of salvation into a dogmatic dogfight over doctrine. I’m sure the Father is impressed by your infighting. It’s like parents arguing in front of the children- it’s just not good for anyone.
There are many scriptures that can offer us solace, and there are many scriptures that can cause us to question our own salvation. Why? Because, sometimes we need comfort- and sometimes we need fear. Our Father will use whatever means necessary draw us to Him, but He will not force Himself upon us. That is Love.
Can we lose our salvation? IMO, no. Can we freely and purposefully reject it? IMO, yes. Am I certain? Absolutely not. Who among us has read the names in The Book of Life? Right- none of us. Consider the parable of the Prodigal Son. Did he lose his salvation? No. Why? Because he came home. Could he have lost it? It just doesn’t say. It seems that he chose to leave, and then chose to return (to a loving Father who was waiting with open arms).
Revelation 3:5 (NASB95): 5 ‘He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.
“He who overcomes”… There is a certain finality to that statement. As though it is an ongoing process, that will not be completed until the end. A war is comprised of many battles. “I will not erase his name from the book of life…”
Logically, it follows that if we do not overcome, then He will erase our names from the book of life. Perhaps this is why we are encouraged to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. But, make no mistake- there is absolutely nothing that we can add to the work that Christ did on the cross. We are not saved by works, but we work because we are saved by grace through faith. It is a labor of love.
John 14:15 (NASB95): If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
Now, what I think this means is that you will want to keep the commandments. Why?
Because Paul said
Romans 7:15–20 (NASB95): For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.
16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.
17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.
19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.
20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
(It is of the utmost importance to not allow this to become misinterpreted as justification for sin)
1 John 1:9 (NASB95): If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
And…
Lamentations 3:22–25 (NASB95): The Lord’s lovingkindnesses indeed never cease,
For His compassions never fail.
23 They are new every morning;
Great is Your faithfulness.
24 “The Lord is my portion,” says my soul,
“Therefore I have hope in Him.”
25 The Lord is good to those who wait for Him,
To the person who seeks Him.
So, my friend, continue to seek Him, and you will overcome. God’s Word assures us that His grace is sufficient.
quote:
As someone who struggles with addiction I have issues reconciling my salvation in what sometimes feels like a constant state of disobedience.
There are many scriptures that can offer us solace, and there are many scriptures that can cause us to question our own salvation. Why? Because, sometimes we need comfort- and sometimes we need fear. Our Father will use whatever means necessary draw us to Him, but He will not force Himself upon us. That is Love.
Can we lose our salvation? IMO, no. Can we freely and purposefully reject it? IMO, yes. Am I certain? Absolutely not. Who among us has read the names in The Book of Life? Right- none of us. Consider the parable of the Prodigal Son. Did he lose his salvation? No. Why? Because he came home. Could he have lost it? It just doesn’t say. It seems that he chose to leave, and then chose to return (to a loving Father who was waiting with open arms).
Revelation 3:5 (NASB95): 5 ‘He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.
“He who overcomes”… There is a certain finality to that statement. As though it is an ongoing process, that will not be completed until the end. A war is comprised of many battles. “I will not erase his name from the book of life…”
Logically, it follows that if we do not overcome, then He will erase our names from the book of life. Perhaps this is why we are encouraged to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. But, make no mistake- there is absolutely nothing that we can add to the work that Christ did on the cross. We are not saved by works, but we work because we are saved by grace through faith. It is a labor of love.
John 14:15 (NASB95): If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
Now, what I think this means is that you will want to keep the commandments. Why?
Because Paul said
Romans 7:15–20 (NASB95): For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.
16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.
17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.
19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.
20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
(It is of the utmost importance to not allow this to become misinterpreted as justification for sin)
1 John 1:9 (NASB95): If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
And…
Lamentations 3:22–25 (NASB95): The Lord’s lovingkindnesses indeed never cease,
For His compassions never fail.
23 They are new every morning;
Great is Your faithfulness.
24 “The Lord is my portion,” says my soul,
“Therefore I have hope in Him.”
25 The Lord is good to those who wait for Him,
To the person who seeks Him.
So, my friend, continue to seek Him, and you will overcome. God’s Word assures us that His grace is sufficient.
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