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Started By
Message
re: Pels to “restructure” player care/performance dept
Posted on 5/31/23 at 10:38 am to 5iveEuax4eaux
Posted on 5/31/23 at 10:38 am to 5iveEuax4eaux
quote:
In reality he's done a pretty good job with everyone else.
I couldn't disagree more. I'd like you to let me know of a time when a player has missed the short end of time for an expected rehab. He has been ridiculously cautious with the entire roster with no evidence of it being beneficial. BI has missed 27 and 37 games the last two seasons with no diagnosable injury other than "toe sprain" and "hamstring tightness." Jose missed more games than Anthony Davis this year with a similar injury. Those are just examples from this past season and that doesn't even get into the Zion nonsense.
1
Posted on 5/31/23 at 10:39 am to 5iveEuax4eaux
quote:Ingram?
In reality he's done a pretty good job with everyone else.
Posted on 5/31/23 at 11:28 am to shel311
Echoing what others have said, but when is the last time any Pelicans player has met or exceeded a rehab target? Has anyone gotten a 4 week injury and were back to playing by week 4?
We either have the most dishonest coaching staff or the most cautious training staff on the planet.
We either have the most dishonest coaching staff or the most cautious training staff on the planet.
Posted on 5/31/23 at 11:38 am to saints5021
Josh Hart, Nance Jr, McCollum, Herb Jones,JV,Jose, and etc... Has came back early from injuries or play through injuries under this medical staff.
The overly cautious thing is a Zion thing and he's the only one who is held out by the medical staff longer for whatever reasons. Ingram and Ball were notoriously slow healers. And Ingram only returns when he feels ready.
The overly cautious thing is a Zion thing and he's the only one who is held out by the medical staff longer for whatever reasons. Ingram and Ball were notoriously slow healers. And Ingram only returns when he feels ready.
Posted on 5/31/23 at 11:48 am to supe12sta12z
quote:I assume he meant came back healthy.
Josh Hart, Nance Jr, McCollum, Herb Jones,JV,Jose, and etc... Has came back early from injuries or play through injuries under this medical staff.
From that list, Nance/CJ/JV/Jose...they call came back, but none were ever close to healthy.
quote:The reason has really come to light, it's because he doesn't take rehab seriously and doesn't do what he needs to do.
The overly cautious thing is a Zion thing and he's the only one who is held out by the medical staff longer for whatever reasons
quote:This is one of those things where maybe it's not fair to Nelson, but it still ultimately falls on him. If Nelson can't get Zion to do the work he's laying out, and if Nelson can't get BI to buy in that he IS healthy enough to return to a game...maybe there's nothing Nelson can do to fix either of those issues, but I do think he has to take the fall. Let's get a new guy, see if he can have better success.
The overly cautious thing is a Zion thing and he's the only one who is held out by the medical staff longer for whatever reasons. Ingram and Ball were notoriously slow healers. And Ingram only returns when he feels ready.
Posted on 5/31/23 at 4:44 pm to cgrand
Sad if one of the best trainers in the NBA takes the fall for Griffins inability to meaningfully reach players and for players who don’t listen to someone that is the Coach K of his profession. The same guys that laugh at CJ for stretching while they can’t play a whole season. Unreal to me that they can’t figure it out with every resource at their fingertips.
Posted on 5/31/23 at 4:59 pm to klew5
quote:He was one of the best. That was some time ago. I wonder if his methods and philosophy is a thing of the past. The fact is that he is judged on results, and those results have not been positive since he have been here (despite significant investments at his request).
Sad if one of the best trainers in the NBA takes the fall for Griffins inability to meaningfully reach players and for players who don’t listen to someone that is the Coach K of his profession. The same guys that laugh at CJ for stretching while they can’t play a whole season. Unreal to me that they can’t figure it out with every resource at their fingertips.
Posted on 5/31/23 at 5:39 pm to cgrand
Griffin word salad incoming.
Posted on 5/31/23 at 7:03 pm to 3PieceSpicy
quote:
Man, screw simply “restructuring” the player care/performance department.
A guy like Aaron Nelson bungling the first 4 years of Zion’s career should arguably be up for public execution.
Aren't you the guy who calls zion q lazy bum in every thread
Posted on 5/31/23 at 8:23 pm to Chalkywhite84
Actually, no tbh. I’m not even 100% sure I’ve ever called him that exactly.
But if I did, it certainly wasn’t in every thread. I’ve had many positive Zion posts and threads over the years tbh. More recently negative.
We don’t talk about the Nelson factor all that often, but when we do, I haven’t really been enamored with him. I recognize that Zion plays a big role in his own health, but so does a guy like Nelson. I think he was a ground breaking figure in his space a decade ago, not so much now.
But if I did, it certainly wasn’t in every thread. I’ve had many positive Zion posts and threads over the years tbh. More recently negative.
We don’t talk about the Nelson factor all that often, but when we do, I haven’t really been enamored with him. I recognize that Zion plays a big role in his own health, but so does a guy like Nelson. I think he was a ground breaking figure in his space a decade ago, not so much now.
Posted on 6/1/23 at 11:22 am to cgrand
Posted on 6/1/23 at 11:41 am to ghost2most
Being assosiated with Oschner is the problem.The Saints
made serious changes a couple of years ago because of their
incompatence. A few people I know who weren`t in critical
shape never made it out of there.
The Pels and the Saints have been misdiagnosed a number
of times.
made serious changes a couple of years ago because of their
incompatence. A few people I know who weren`t in critical
shape never made it out of there.
The Pels and the Saints have been misdiagnosed a number
of times.
Posted on 6/1/23 at 2:41 pm to CRW
Why are you typing in some bizarro haiku form?
Posted on 6/2/23 at 5:01 am to Jester
LINK
Here’s an article from CC about this whole thing.
Cliffnotes, Nelson won’t be fired but he will no longer be in charge, they’re still working through his new role.
The team and players grew frustrated with how unwilling he was to bend on things like Zion’s bursts in his rookie season.
Teammates got frustrated with Ingram and his extended absence this year, they felt he was good to play and continued sitting out.
Here’s an article from CC about this whole thing.
Cliffnotes, Nelson won’t be fired but he will no longer be in charge, they’re still working through his new role.
The team and players grew frustrated with how unwilling he was to bend on things like Zion’s bursts in his rookie season.
Teammates got frustrated with Ingram and his extended absence this year, they felt he was good to play and continued sitting out.
Posted on 6/2/23 at 5:25 am to Soggymoss
quote:
Here’s an article from CC about this whole thing.
I couldn't read due to a paywall.
quote:
Cliffnotes, Nelson won’t be fired but he will no longer be in charge, they’re still working through his new role.
Is this due to an existing contract? Don't want to buy him out, so just put him in another role until it's over?
quote:
The team and players grew frustrated with how unwilling he was to bend on things like Zion’s bursts in his rookie season.
I don't get why it was a bad idea. He had no stamina and was most effective playing in short bursts, plus less minutes=less opportunity for injury.
If he's only going to play 20ish minutes, six 3-4 minute bursts seems like a good target.
quote:
Teammates got frustrated with Ingram and his extended absence this year, they felt he was good to play and continued sitting out.
Did the training staff hold him out against his wishes?
Posted on 6/2/23 at 5:33 am to brmark70816
The Ingram thing is Ingram holding himself out, as we heard this past season when he sat out an additional almost month after being cleared because he “mentally” wasnt ready.
On Nelson and his new role, it’s not a definite he will remain with the team
quote:
NBA insiders were shocked when Nelson was informed he would no longer be in charge of the Pelicans' player care and performance team. Nelson and Griffin were friends dating to their time with the Suns, and Griffin gave Nelson a huge amount of power in New Orleans. One of the biggest complaints about Nelson's time in charge was how inflexible he could be. Williamson's burst-shortened NBA debut was a prime example.
quote:
Other NBA sources wondered if Nelson was being scapegoated for Williamson and Ingram's shortcomings as unreliable stars. Williamson possesses an unprecedented blend of size and speed with a penchant for being out of shape — a recipe for getting injured. Ingram has sometimes seemed unwilling to play through minor discomfort, to the point where some of his teammates have become frustrated with him over the past two years.
On Nelson and his new role, it’s not a definite he will remain with the team
quote:
Four years later, Nelson’s run with the Pelicans could be over. While the team has maintained he might be back next season in a different role a part of a restructuring, multiple team sources told The Times-Picayune that they would be surprised if Nelson is around the team next season. Asked for comment, Nelson said he and the Pelicans are "still working on (the) details" regarding his role next season.
This post was edited on 6/2/23 at 5:34 am
Posted on 6/2/23 at 6:43 am to brmark70816
quote:
I don't get why it was a bad idea. He had no stamina and was most effective playing in short bursts, plus less minutes=less opportunity for injury.
If he's only going to play 20ish minutes, six 3-4 minute bursts seems like a good target.
Medical decisions should be based on available evidence and data. There is literally no evidence or data to support what you just said or what Nelson decided to do with bursts. It was a theory that Nelson acted as if was a proven standard.
The main problem with the bursts was that a rehab professional's chief objective is to get a patient back to their normal activities as quickly as possible. For example, an offshore oil field worker is not rehabbed the same as a bank employee. A patient with a mandate to return to work in less than six weeks before they start losing pay is not rehabbed the same as a retired patient. Aaron Nelson's chief job was to rehab a 19 year old phenom to be ready to play NBA basketball as soon as possible. He instead chose to hold Williamson out an extra 5 weeks at minimum and then severely limited his participation based on no proven, scientific data. In fact, as stated in the article, Williamson's best season with regard to injury was the season in which he had the least limitations placed on him.
The bursts were the result of an arrogant medical professional who was unwilling to bend on their desired protocol. This happens all the time in the real world. Patients switch doctors because they don't feel their treatment plan is best for them or it is not standard practice. Nelson is making a ton of money and has a responsibility to have players available and to put them in the best position to succeed. He chose to step outside of accepted practice and hold out a healthy superstar. It didn't work. Now he will be held accountable for his plan not working. Good riddance.
Posted on 6/2/23 at 6:45 am to brmark70816
quote:
Is this due to an existing contract? Don't want to buy him out, so just put him in another role until it's over?
That's what it sounds like. We don't want to fire him and pay a buyout, so we're demoting him so that he will quit.
Posted on 6/2/23 at 7:16 am to ThePistol
quote:
He instead chose to hold Williamson out an extra 5 weeks at minimum and then severely limited his participation based on no proven, scientific data
I don't know about this. Plenty of players come back with minutes restrictions. Chopping up into smaller blocks is nothing new. It's something many on here were asking for each of the past two seasons. We all wanted him to come back and give us anything. Even a couple minutes a quarter.
Zion and his camp always seem to think that they know better. So they fight everything. Including basic fitness and body construction norms.
I don't care if they fire the guy or not (our team is horribly conditioned). But I'm going to take his side in a debate between the training staff and Zion. They are right. Zion is wrong and totally clueless. If he is being terminated because of that, then that is just wrong..
Posted on 6/2/23 at 8:16 am to brmark70816
quote:
As The Times-Picayune first reported two years ago, Williamson became frustrated with the Pelicans for the number of hoops they made him jump through to play again. When Williamson finally made his NBA debut against the San Antonio Spurs, the team placed him on “burst” limits, which he hated.
Williamson caught fire in the fourth quarter, nailing four 3s en route to 17 straight points. Yet in the middle of that explosion, he was yanked out of the game with 5:23 to go. The Pelicans lost. Williamson played 18 minutes, 18 seconds.
“He wasn’t happy about it,” Gentry said. “I don’t think anyone would be happy about it. I ain’t the brightest coach in the world, but I wasn’t going to take him out in those situations unless I was told to.”
Gentry was frustrated that the burst limits interrupted a magical moment and potentially cost his team a win. He also felt the Griffin-Nelson duo lacked feel for adhering to the burst limits in the fourth quarter, despite the way the game was going.
Williamson’s relationship with Nelson became strained during his rookie season. At different points, Williamson refused to work with him. It was a rocky first few months for Nelson, whose arrival the Pelicans had trumpeted with a glowing 1,800-word profile on their team website.
I know this is just one example, but in that moment when Zion is playing out of his mind and hitting multiple 3s, you have to leave him in there. You just can't be that rigid when dealing with a star player. Hell, most teams would love to have a 'problem' of players wanting to come back too early from injury. Usually it is the opposite.
As the article mentions, Zion's healthiest season was with Stan who practiced the team far harder than Uncle Al (unsure how it compares to Willie). To a degree, you have to get your body accustomed to the strain put on it during games. You can't treat it with kid gloves and then put it through unfamiliar force all of a sudden when its game time.
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