re: Latest Updates: Russia-Ukraine Conflict

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I think there is a solid middle ground somewhere between "completely capitulate to a tyarnt" and "become more involved than we really should be in a conflict where the outcome won't impact our lives one iota".

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We?

Weren’t we talking about French and Polish involvement?

Why are they so worried? Maybe they think their national security is at risk? What about the Finns and the Swedes? Maybe they are worried enough to not stay neutral?

And “we” do have a risk if NATO allies get attacked.

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The war against Russia, who can't even put away an opponent 4 weight classes down from them, is existential to multiple countries that Russia would never invade in the modern day?

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Russia would also never invade Ukraine, until it did.

Also, a big part of the problem for Poland and other Eastern European nations is the impending accession of Belarus into Russia, which Putin and Lukashenko are gradually implementing. Prior to 2022, Belarus was viewed as a buffer state.

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It wouldn't use nukes, until it does.

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The redlines to use nukes have been crossed several times. Putin knows that Russia would be destroyed and we won't even need nukes to do so

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The redlines to use nukes have been crossed several times.

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It wouldn't use nukes, until it does.

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"We" as in the collective west.

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But you are missing the point. Each nation has a different level of interest even though all are in NATO. France and Poland both talked about sending troops. That’s the topic. The ramifications of them sending troops.

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I know its a wild concept, but things our allies do impact us when we have a defense pact with them.

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You just said that none of this impacts us? Now you are agreeing with me, finally.

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I would be "worried" and "concerned" too if it meant that big daddy Uncle Sam would promise to protect me, even if I'm asking for it by sending troops.

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So if you were a leader of a NATO country, you’d be worried that the US is in NATO also?
Crazy.

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..... which is exactly my point. If Russia decides ""we are basically fighting NATO anyway, might as well shoot a missle at X factory in Poland/France" there we go waltzing into WW3 like it wasn't easily predictable.

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So what are the options? You promised to protect Ukraine. Your European allies are worried for good reason, and Putin is committing more and more resources to the decade long war.

Our reaction to date was slow, but we finally got involved, but late. Biden being such a weak figure gave Putin reason to continue the war at a much higher level. The danger as I see it is not that we acted too forcefully, the danger was we didn’t react quickly or forcefully enough beginning in 2014.

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You just said that none of this impacts us? Now you are agreeing with me, finally.

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Reading comprehension off the charts. The outcome of the conflict in Ukraine doesn't impact us. France and Poland sending troops absolutely could.

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So what are the options? You promised to protect Ukraine.

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We also promised Russia to not expand NATO any further east, and we've been doing that basically every since we promised not too and decided to go even FURTHER by starting the process of admitting Ukraine. This "BUT WE PROMISED" narrative is just silly... countries use technicalities to break promises, "doctrines", policies, laws, etc etc all the time. I

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Your European allies are worried for good reason

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Is it a good reason? Is the point of NATO not to stop Russian aggression? Thats why we are being sold that Ukraine MUST join. But its not going to stop Russian aggression toward Poland or France now?

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the danger was we didn’t react quickly or forcefully enough beginning in 2014.

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I actually agree here, if we were going to do something we should have in 2014.

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why do you doubt him?

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Well, for one he's basically a Russian troll farm bot who just posts screen shots of Pro Russian propaganda social media accounts. So there's that.

And then there's the idea that the French Army has 86 brigades. Plus the Foreign Legion.

And they have successfully deployed multiple brigades in eastern Europe, Africa, and SE Asia over the years. And supported them for many many months continuously.

So him saying they could only send one or two brigades to Ukraine for a month or two.... well that sounds like someone who is ignorant. Or someone who is deliberately lying.

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The outcome of the conflict in Ukraine doesn't impact us. France and Poland sending troops absolutely could.

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The outcome doesn’t impact us, but the war itself does?????

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We also promised Russia to not expand NATO any further east, and we've been doing that basically every since we promised not too and decided to go even FURTHER by starting the process of admitting Ukraine. This "BUT WE PROMISED" narrative is just silly... countries use technicalities to break promises, "doctrines", policies, laws, etc etc all the time. I

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Do you have a link to that agreement?
I can provide a link to where both the
US and Russia agreed to protect Ukraine.

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Is the point of NATO not to stop Russian aggression? Thats why we are being sold that Ukraine MUST join. But its not going to stop Russian aggression toward Poland or France now?

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That’s one of the reasons NATO was formed.
BTW, I am against Ukraine joining NATO. I don’t see a whole lot of movement now to let them in.

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The outcome doesn’t impact us, but the war itself does?????

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If a NATO member is attacked, pulling us into it? Yes. If it ended today, or ended in the future without us getting pulled into it, the outcome will not impact us.

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Do you have a link to that agreement?

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LINK

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In early February 1990, U.S. leaders made the Soviets an offer. According to transcripts of meetings in Moscow on Feb. 9, then-Secretary of State James Baker suggested that in exchange for cooperation on Germany, U.S. could make “iron-clad guarantees” that NATO would not expand “one inch eastward.” Less than a week later, Soviet President Mikhail Gorbachev agreed to begin reunification talks. No formal deal was struck, but from all the evidence, the quid pro quo was clear: Gorbachev acceded to Germany’s western alignment and the U.S. would limit NATO’s expansion.

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So its apparently not in writing, but we definitely made a promise.

And BTW just so we are clear, I don't think what we promised Russia OR what we promised Ukraine years and multiple administrations ago should impact our ability to make a sound decision on what is right for our country NOW.