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re: Crackpot ASOIAF Theories SPOILERS
Posted on 8/15/12 at 9:57 pm to CottonWasKing
Posted on 8/15/12 at 9:57 pm to CottonWasKing
quote:
Disagree. GRRM has used the term bloody bed entirely too many times for it to be used any other way now. Ned would've never let her fight and the three kingsguard would've never actually fought her. There would also be no reason for that not to be public knowledge.
I don't completely disagree with you.
But there are so many things about the events at the Tower of Joy that don't make sense when it comes to R+L=J.
1. Why would the Kingsguard be guarding Prince Rhaegar's bastard? If it is Jon in the Tower of Joy, the Kingsguard should at least be with Aegon, the heir to the Iron Throne, or Viserys.
2. If the Lord Commander and two other Kingsguard, including Arthur Dayne, are guarding Jon and Lyanna, why would they feel the need to fight to the death? That makes no sense. Ned Stark would not harm Lyanna, nor her son.
3. Arthur Dayne is told of the deaths of Aerys and Rhaegar just before their battle with Ned Stark. Why would they continue with the fight? Jon would not have been heir to the throne. And the Kingsguard would have no reason to fight Ned at this point. In fact, the Kingsguard mention their "vows" just before the fight begins. Their vows would have been to protect the king and royal family. That might have included Lyanna and Jon, but there was no reason for them to believe that Ned was there to harm Rheagar's mistress and bastard.
There seems to be an element missing. If Aerys and Rhaegar are dead at this point, it make more sense that the Kingsguard would be protecting Aegon than Jon (even if he is tPtwP).
This post was edited on 8/15/12 at 10:02 pm
3
Posted on 8/15/12 at 10:01 pm to jrodLSUke
The explanation is that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married prior to conceiving Jon.
Posted on 8/15/12 at 10:07 pm to jrodLSUke
quote:
1. Why would the Kingsguard be guarding Prince Rhaegar's bastard? If it is Jon in the Tower of Joy, the Kingsguard should at least be with Aegon, the heir to the Iron Throne, or Viserys.
Unless Rhaegar named Jon his heir which would be within his power
quote:
2. If the Lord Commander and two other Kingsguard, including Arthur Dayne, are guarding Jon and Lyanna, why would they feel the need to fight to the death? That makes no sense. Ned Stark would not harm Lyanna, nor her son.
That all depends on the orders they were given by Rhaegar. In their minds Ned was a traitor and a rebel. While they may not believe Ned to be a threat they more than likely had their orders.
quote:
3. Arthur Dayne is told of the deaths of Aerys and Rhaegar just before their battle with Ned Stark. Why would they continue with the fight? Jon would not have been heir to the throne. And the Kingsguard would have no reason to fight Ned at this point. In fact, the Kingsguard mention their "vows" just before the fight begins. Their vows would have been to protect the king and royal family. That might have included Lyanna and Jon, but there was no reason for them to believe that Ned was there to harm Rheagar's mistress and bastard.
once again we just don't know what Rhaegars plans were. We do know that he planned on making some changes once he got back to KL though.
If Rhaegar believed Jon to be the PTWP/AA reborn then he would have placed the utmost importance on his well being.
Posted on 8/15/12 at 10:09 pm to DestrehanTiger
A marriage between Rhaegar and Lyanna would make sense of a lot of things, but not the fight at the Tower of Joy.
Since Rhaegar is already dead and Jon is the Targaryen heir to the throne, what reason would there be for Ser Dayne and the Lord Commander to fight Ned Stark?
Robert Baratheon is not present. I don't understand why Dayne would feel the need to battle to the death when Lyanna and Jon would be quite safe with a Stark kinsmen. No one would have accused Ned Stark of being a potential kinslayer.
Since Rhaegar is already dead and Jon is the Targaryen heir to the throne, what reason would there be for Ser Dayne and the Lord Commander to fight Ned Stark?
Robert Baratheon is not present. I don't understand why Dayne would feel the need to battle to the death when Lyanna and Jon would be quite safe with a Stark kinsmen. No one would have accused Ned Stark of being a potential kinslayer.
Posted on 8/15/12 at 10:14 pm to jrodLSUke
quote:
A marriage between Rhaegar and Lyanna would make sense of a lot of things, but not the fight at the Tower of Joy.
Since Rhaegar is already dead and Jon is the Targaryen heir to the throne, what reason would there be for Ser Dayne and the Lord Commander to fight Ned Stark?
Robert Baratheon is not present. I don't understand why Dayne would feel the need to battle to the death when Lyanna and Jon would be quite safe with a Stark kinsmen. No one would have accused Ned Stark of being a potential kinslayer.
Hell maybe Rhaegar wanted Jon kept secret until he came of age. Maybe Rhaegar gave them clear instructions to let NO ONE inside the tower. Maybe Dayne fell on his own sword. There are a million different options but I don't see any of them disproving R+L=J
Posted on 8/15/12 at 10:54 pm to jrodLSUke
Why would the Kingsguard trust Jon with Ned? He was Robert's best friend and they couldn't know if that would trump his relationship with Lyanna. Especially with Rhaenys and Aegon having been killed.
Posted on 8/15/12 at 10:57 pm to NIH
quote:
Why would the Kingsguard trust Jon with Ned? He was Robert's best friend and they couldn't know if that would trump his relationship with Lyanna. Especially with Rhaenys and Aegon having been killed.
and even if they did trust Ned why would they trust the other 6 men with him? How would they know that one of them wasn't informing Robert?
They wouldn't so they weren't taking chances with the heir.
Posted on 8/15/12 at 11:13 pm to CottonWasKing
Great thread. Just read the 5 books over the last 3 months and am going crazy thinking about having to wait for WoW
This post was edited on 8/15/12 at 11:34 pm
Posted on 8/15/12 at 11:28 pm to jmeng
ygm
Posted on 8/15/12 at 11:33 pm to CottonWasKing
Thanks
Posted on 8/15/12 at 11:58 pm to CottonWasKing
quote:
ygm
Cheating on me already ah?
Re: Why Ned wasn't allowed to just take the baby.
I guess it's possible they overheard Lyanna asking Ned to protect Jon and defaulted to her since Rhaegar was dead.
There's also some speculation that they were married because of a precedent set somewhere along the Targ line for polygamy.
But I agree with the notion that they didn't trust Ned (hence the battle) because of his allegiance to Big Bob.
This post was edited on 8/16/12 at 12:05 am
Posted on 8/16/12 at 12:15 am to jmeng
All right its late and its been a long day, but here's my Tyrion is a Targ argument as best as I can make it midnight on a Wed.
Direct:
Genetics work differently in Westeros than they do here. Golden hair is definitive proof that Joffrey, Tommen, and whatshername are Lannister instead of Baratheon. But Tyrion's silvery white hair means nothing? All Lannisters have golden hair, some curly some straight but all golden.
Tyrion had vivid dreams of dragons like the Targs.
It was widely whispered that Lord Tywin was the true ruler under Aerys II but he threw that away over a mild insult? He's too cold and calculating for that. Marriage pacts carry a lot of weight in Westeros but rejected proposals are another matter.
Two characters have mismatched eyes. Tyrion and Shierra Seastar.
Selmy's comments regarding Aery's infatuation with Joanna. (I came to this belief long before ADWD fwiw.)
Indirect:
The kinslayer is cursed by gods and men. This lets Tyrion off the hook.
The affinity of dragon's for the Targ bloodline has been stressed for thousands of pages now. There's a big reveal being foreshadowed here, I feel certain of that. If Aegon is a Blackfyre like most of us seen to think then its not much of a reveal concerning him. Dany feeding Tyrion to a dragon seems to be pretty predictable, (which makes me doubt it just a bit).
Cherry on top:
Does anyone recall Tywin Lannister's dying words?
I'm not claiming any of that as definitive proof, but its not entirely baseless.
My apologies for any errors in spelling or sentence structure. I've had a long day.
Direct:
Genetics work differently in Westeros than they do here. Golden hair is definitive proof that Joffrey, Tommen, and whatshername are Lannister instead of Baratheon. But Tyrion's silvery white hair means nothing? All Lannisters have golden hair, some curly some straight but all golden.
Tyrion had vivid dreams of dragons like the Targs.
It was widely whispered that Lord Tywin was the true ruler under Aerys II but he threw that away over a mild insult? He's too cold and calculating for that. Marriage pacts carry a lot of weight in Westeros but rejected proposals are another matter.
Two characters have mismatched eyes. Tyrion and Shierra Seastar.
Selmy's comments regarding Aery's infatuation with Joanna. (I came to this belief long before ADWD fwiw.)
Indirect:
The kinslayer is cursed by gods and men. This lets Tyrion off the hook.
The affinity of dragon's for the Targ bloodline has been stressed for thousands of pages now. There's a big reveal being foreshadowed here, I feel certain of that. If Aegon is a Blackfyre like most of us seen to think then its not much of a reveal concerning him. Dany feeding Tyrion to a dragon seems to be pretty predictable, (which makes me doubt it just a bit).
Cherry on top:
Does anyone recall Tywin Lannister's dying words?
I'm not claiming any of that as definitive proof, but its not entirely baseless.
My apologies for any errors in spelling or sentence structure. I've had a long day.
Posted on 8/16/12 at 12:21 am to shinerfan
Also, if Victarion can trick someone of his bloodline to blow the dragon horn, will that bind the dragons to the Greyjoy bloodline? What would that mean for Theon? All dragons or just the ones who physically hear the horn? Did those eggs really come from Asshai or is Illyrio connected to the Blackfyres through his silver haired wife?
And great thread. I enjoyed.
And great thread. I enjoyed.
Posted on 8/16/12 at 12:28 am to jrodLSUke
quote:
1. Why would the Kingsguard be guarding Prince Rhaegar's bastard? If it is Jon in the Tower of Joy, the Kingsguard should at least be with Aegon, the heir to the Iron Throne, or Viserys.
Could be guarding his true love.
quote:
2. If the Lord Commander and two other Kingsguard, including Arthur Dayne, are guarding Jon and Lyanna, why would they feel the need to fight to the death? That makes no sense. Ned Stark would not harm Lyanna, nor her son.
Perhaps Aerys told the Kingsguard to kill the child, and Ned defended her from them.
quote:
There seems to be an element missing. If Aerys and Rhaegar are dead at this point, it make more sense that the Kingsguard would be protecting Aegon than Jon (even if he is tPtwP).
....frick. Please god damn you and god damn me.
Posted on 8/16/12 at 2:22 am to shinerfan
What's interesting about the horn is that the translation on it says:
So will Victarion have to die then be revived with the red kiss to make it happen and make himself owner of the horn?
I also think the Dusky Woman is there to assassinate Victarion once the dragons are called (I think Euron thinks that if they kill Victarion post-horn blow the dragons default to him). Honesty I'm not sure what happens if someone else blows the horn even if kin.
This is also from the Dragon Horn wiki:
Maybe I'm missing something but it's still not real clear to me.
quote:
“ "I am Dragonbinder, No Mortal man should sound me and live, Blood for Fire, Fire for Blood" [3] ”
So will Victarion have to die then be revived with the red kiss to make it happen and make himself owner of the horn?
I also think the Dusky Woman is there to assassinate Victarion once the dragons are called (I think Euron thinks that if they kill Victarion post-horn blow the dragons default to him). Honesty I'm not sure what happens if someone else blows the horn even if kin.
This is also from the Dragon Horn wiki:
quote:
Moqorro says whoever blows the horn will die but any dragons that hear will obey the horn's master. Moqorro says Victarion must be made the horn's master and he must claim the horn with blood.[4]
Maybe I'm missing something but it's still not real clear to me.
This post was edited on 8/16/12 at 2:25 am
Posted on 8/16/12 at 7:29 am to CottonWasKing
Does anyone have the novellas in any form other than epub? A pdf perhaps?
Posted on 8/16/12 at 7:47 am to boxcarbarney
I have links
(actually links to the links)
LINK to Dunk & Egg. Plus: The Knight of The Laughing Tree Thread - Massive Song of Ice and Fire Spoilers!
(actually links to the links)
LINK to Dunk & Egg. Plus: The Knight of The Laughing Tree Thread - Massive Song of Ice and Fire Spoilers!
Posted on 8/16/12 at 10:51 am to boxcarbarney
If you want to read an ePub on your computer download Adobe Digital Editions (it's free).
Posted on 8/16/12 at 10:54 am to jrodLSUke
quote:
I have links
(actually links to the links)
LINK to Dunk & Egg. Plus: The Knight of The Laughing Tree Thread - Massive Song of Ice and Fire Spoilers!
Thanks, man, those are so much better than this shitty ereader I have.
Posted on 8/16/12 at 10:55 am to BluegrassBelle
quote:
also think the Dusky Woman is there to assassinate Victarion once the dragons are called (I think Euron thinks that if they kill Victarion post-horn blow the dragons default to him). Honesty I'm not sure what happens if someone else blows the horn even if kin.
I agree with this.
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