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Started By
Message
re: Why on earth did Jogi Löw start Podolski?
Posted on 6/29/12 at 2:50 pm to hendersonshands
Posted on 6/29/12 at 2:50 pm to hendersonshands
quote:
You never know which Mario you'll get.
You're lucky, you know two Gomez's.
0
Posted on 6/29/12 at 3:01 pm to hendersonshands
quote:
You keep saying that Italy's midfield was some godsend, but it was Italy's defensive organization that was the impressive thing. Their midfield was fine, but it wasn't anything earth shattering.
Italy won the midfield and that's what caused the defensive problems for Germany. Germany is dominant when they control the midfield to allow all their attacking first players to not worry as much about defending. Italy dictated play from the midfield and hence were able to take advantage of Germany's porous defense.
I'm not saying Italy's midfield was necessarily a godsend just that it's better than Germany's and that was the difference. That Italy was better organized has everything to do with which midfield was more effective.
For example: Cassano isn't left on an island to abuse Hummels unless Pirlo doesn't create the space with Ozil trying to shut him down to get off an accurate 50 yard diagonal.
I love how Schweinsteiger plays but he's certainly not better than De Rossi. They're both world class but I think De Rossi is even more flexible which helps with the NT lineups.
Khedira/Kroos are not really any better than Montolivo/Marchisio.
Ozil is a fantastic attacking talent--clearly as good as any in the world-- but his seeming complete disinterest or inability in defending had as much to with Kroos and Podolski playing as anything. It's also the reason he's not always in Mourinho's lineups.
Also, it's not like this exact Italian midfield has played together all that often either so that excuse doesn't really fly.
This post was edited on 6/29/12 at 3:04 pm
Posted on 6/29/12 at 3:19 pm to wm72
The system is consistent with Italy. Germany changed up their entire style for just one game. Özil was forced out wide with Kroos covering the center. It wasn't like the Greece game where they plugged new guys in to the same style.
The reason Hummels was left on an island is because Germany didn't have width because Özil and Kroos both wanted to pinch in. Boateng covered the right side of midfield causing Himmels to slide more to the right.
Once again, that's a problem of coaching and tactics on Germany's part and not something that Italy did so wonderfully.
Also, it is your opinion that De Rossi is better but that is not a fact. You shouldn't say certainly. Schweinsteiger played the entire tournament injured and Löw should have made changes there as well.
Once again, coaching failure on Germany's side.
The reason Hummels was left on an island is because Germany didn't have width because Özil and Kroos both wanted to pinch in. Boateng covered the right side of midfield causing Himmels to slide more to the right.
Once again, that's a problem of coaching and tactics on Germany's part and not something that Italy did so wonderfully.
Also, it is your opinion that De Rossi is better but that is not a fact. You shouldn't say certainly. Schweinsteiger played the entire tournament injured and Löw should have made changes there as well.
Once again, coaching failure on Germany's side.
Posted on 6/29/12 at 3:47 pm to joey barton
quote:
He's like a giant, onside Pippo Inzaghi
Damn that's a beautiful description.
Posted on 6/29/12 at 5:51 pm to hendersonshands
quote:
Also, it is your opinion that De Rossi is better but that is not a fact. You shouldn't say certainly. Schweinsteiger played the entire tournament injured and Löw should have made changes there as well.
You're right that it's an opinion but I seem to recall reading a few of yours as well. De Rossi has played the entire Euro injured also by the way.
quote:
The system is consistent with Italy. Germany changed up their entire style for just one game.
This, along with the rest of your post, is merely an uninformed attempt to not give Italy credit for straight up taking it to Germany and beating them pretty soundly.
Maybe you only pay any attention to Germany but even listening to pre-game commentary would inform you that the Italian team was in much more flux as far as lineups/formations due to injuries etc than Germany.
In fact, I've read it on this board 50 times as one of the reasons a majority of posters here picked Italy to not even make it out of their group.
For example, the defensive organization you praise Italy for consisted of these makeshift pieces:
Balzaretti -- an attacking LB not known for his defense played against Germany in an emergency situation at RB for probably the first time since he was a teenager and was asked to defend more than usual because both the normal first and second choice RBs Maggio (yellow accumulation) and Abate (injury) were unavailable.
Bonucci -- CB that no one expected to play that much at all but was forced into action because LB Criscito was removed from the team coupled with the Chiellini injury.
Chiellini -- world class CB playing LB where he's capable but not really his position and, like Schweinsteiger and De Rossi, not playing 100% due to an hamstring injury.
Barzargli-- solid CB but normally plays in a 3 man defense.
Italy, if you recall, played Spain in a 3 man defense with De Rossi in the center of the back three because of these problems. Every single match has seen Prandelli shuffle this back line around desperately due to injuries. Germany had more of a healthy first choice 11 available than Italy.
I agree that all four played very well but it's certainly not due to them playing their normal positions in a consistent system.
It may be due to having players available that are better tactically aware and therefore able to adapt on the fly. I agree with you that Prandelli out coached Low but isn't tactical awareness and better coaching one of Italy's strengths?
I also agree that Kroos and Ozil seemed to have no idea where to position themselves which led to lots of Italian opportunities and also to Ozil's presence being continually diminished.
Again, I'd rather have a midfield with players that could figure it out. Montolivo's hardly played more that Kroos and he seemed to do ok in addition to all the defenders out of their normal positions.
And, further, like what I said about De Rossi, doesn't it need to be considered in some small amount when arguing which players are "better" that a certain player doesn't demand that an entire team/system need to be built around his talents in a certain way to be effective?
I'll take a player like De Rossi that wherever you play him, from CB to regista to destroyer to attacking mid, just ties his laces and gets the job done.
This post was edited on 6/29/12 at 5:56 pm
Posted on 6/29/12 at 6:00 pm to wm72
Excellent post.
Posted on 6/29/12 at 6:26 pm to wm72
My point isn't that the Italians didn't play very well or play injured or anything. My point is that Italy has a system. They played their system. They had players fighting through injury, if you notice I never said anything bad about the Italian players. I thought they played great.
Germany HAD a system or a style that they abandoned once they got to the semi-final. Italy lets their midfield maestro have free reign in the middle of the field, which is smart but pretty easy to figure out. Germany used to let their midfield maestro let have free reign and pick apart passes but they changed right before the biggest game of the tournament.
I think you're quick to be sensitive about Italy because I didn't try to cut down any of their players, as a matter of fact I'm pulling for them in the final because they've looked great all tournament.
My point is that Jogi Loew fricked up moreso than Italy playing out of their skull. It's my opinion, my opinion is all I offer, that Jogi's wrong decisions had more to do with the outcome of the game than anything else.
I give one example, the inclusion of Toni Kroos. Kroos is a fine player and if you really want to get him in the squad there are ways to do so. However, Jogi plugged in Kroos as an attacking midfielder and kept Schweinsteiger and Khedira in at holding mid spots. Schweiny wasn't healthy, not even close. If you have that much faith in Kroos, put him in for Schweiny.
But he didn't. He put in Kroos in place of Reus/Muller. That changed up the way Germany played, big time. What that created was an unbalanced midfield. You had two guy who were trying to stay in the middle and Podolski staying really wide left. There was a gaping hole on the right side because neither Ozil or Kroos are wide players.
That forced Jerome Boateng to play very high up the field. There are two problems with that scenario:
1) That leaves your backline vulnerable, as you saw when Hummels kept having to shift out wide to pick up Cassano who found the big arse hole where Boateng should be.
2) Boateng isn't a very good crosser of the ball. The Italians figured that out very quickly and didn't even bother to go out to challenge him. Smart by Italy but not that hard to figure out.
That whole situation led to the middle of the field being overcrowded, which effectively killed Mesut Ozil's creativity. Mario Gomez wasn't going to work hard to find open spaces in the back. Jogi at least figured that out quick and took him off at halftime.
Jogi made the change at halftime to bring on Reus but he should have taken off Kroos or Schweinsteiger in order to do so. Germany played right into Italy's hands by trying to force everything up the middle of the field.
As far as your point with De Rossi, I never said he's not a good player. I said that Schweinsteiger was playing injured and not doing it well and a change should have probably been made.
Italy didn't have to work that hard to break down Germany, because the Germans did it to themselves. Italy took their chances well, all credit to them for doing so. I think that if Jogi wouldn't have messed up the tactics and the lineup, it would have been much harder to Italy to get into the scoring positions that they got in to.
Germany HAD a system or a style that they abandoned once they got to the semi-final. Italy lets their midfield maestro have free reign in the middle of the field, which is smart but pretty easy to figure out. Germany used to let their midfield maestro let have free reign and pick apart passes but they changed right before the biggest game of the tournament.
I think you're quick to be sensitive about Italy because I didn't try to cut down any of their players, as a matter of fact I'm pulling for them in the final because they've looked great all tournament.
My point is that Jogi Loew fricked up moreso than Italy playing out of their skull. It's my opinion, my opinion is all I offer, that Jogi's wrong decisions had more to do with the outcome of the game than anything else.
I give one example, the inclusion of Toni Kroos. Kroos is a fine player and if you really want to get him in the squad there are ways to do so. However, Jogi plugged in Kroos as an attacking midfielder and kept Schweinsteiger and Khedira in at holding mid spots. Schweiny wasn't healthy, not even close. If you have that much faith in Kroos, put him in for Schweiny.
But he didn't. He put in Kroos in place of Reus/Muller. That changed up the way Germany played, big time. What that created was an unbalanced midfield. You had two guy who were trying to stay in the middle and Podolski staying really wide left. There was a gaping hole on the right side because neither Ozil or Kroos are wide players.
That forced Jerome Boateng to play very high up the field. There are two problems with that scenario:
1) That leaves your backline vulnerable, as you saw when Hummels kept having to shift out wide to pick up Cassano who found the big arse hole where Boateng should be.
2) Boateng isn't a very good crosser of the ball. The Italians figured that out very quickly and didn't even bother to go out to challenge him. Smart by Italy but not that hard to figure out.
That whole situation led to the middle of the field being overcrowded, which effectively killed Mesut Ozil's creativity. Mario Gomez wasn't going to work hard to find open spaces in the back. Jogi at least figured that out quick and took him off at halftime.
Jogi made the change at halftime to bring on Reus but he should have taken off Kroos or Schweinsteiger in order to do so. Germany played right into Italy's hands by trying to force everything up the middle of the field.
As far as your point with De Rossi, I never said he's not a good player. I said that Schweinsteiger was playing injured and not doing it well and a change should have probably been made.
Italy didn't have to work that hard to break down Germany, because the Germans did it to themselves. Italy took their chances well, all credit to them for doing so. I think that if Jogi wouldn't have messed up the tactics and the lineup, it would have been much harder to Italy to get into the scoring positions that they got in to.
Posted on 6/29/12 at 6:41 pm to wm72
Holy shite 
Posted on 6/29/12 at 6:50 pm to LSUSOBEAST1
Also, if anyone remembers, I was never one of the people who thought Germany would blow out Italy. I hoped they would win but I thought it would be very close and could go either way.
I don't think I tried to offend Italy at all. In fact, I think that I'm complimenting them by saying they didn't do anything out of the ordinary. They're usually very good and it's because they're tactically strong and play their roles well.
If I'm talking shite about anyone, it's Jogi Loew and the Germans for not playing to their full potential.
I don't think I tried to offend Italy at all. In fact, I think that I'm complimenting them by saying they didn't do anything out of the ordinary. They're usually very good and it's because they're tactically strong and play their roles well.
If I'm talking shite about anyone, it's Jogi Loew and the Germans for not playing to their full potential.
Posted on 6/29/12 at 6:59 pm to hendersonshands
I appreciate your post and agree with pretty much everything you say.
This is probably right but after the number of "Germany stacked, Italy fricked" posts I've read here along with lists of "top players" that include the entire German NT and reserves without even a mention of a De Rossi, Pirlo or Chiellini, for god's sake, it's not hard to see why.
I'm also not saying that's coming from you and, where it is, I usually take it as humorous banter. Even in yesterday's game thread, I was replying to that arrogant German polar bear and not you. Perhaps, I've read too many posts from people of his ilk.
I do agree completely about the tactical problems for Germany you outline. However, some of that is due to Italy having quality players that created those worries for Low.
Also agree that there's a lot of chance involved when teams are fairly evenly matched. For example, if Badstuber or Hummels had headed in the corner instead of Italy clearing it which led to the break where Montolivo found Balotelli then Prandelli would likely have been criticized for risking too much in not having two of Italy's only tall players defending but instead keeping all the attacking three deep for the counter.
My point is simply that the difference between Italy and Germany's talent in any best 11 they put out isn't so huge. The only gap comes when you consider that Germany have tons of talent right now at attacking wing/mid. However, all those players can't play at once and Italy has just as much quality through the midfield and defense.
It is a point that, when made it before yesterday's match, usually ended up being followed by ten of these
but not today.
quote:
I think you're quick to be sensitive about Italy
This is probably right but after the number of "Germany stacked, Italy fricked" posts I've read here along with lists of "top players" that include the entire German NT and reserves without even a mention of a De Rossi, Pirlo or Chiellini, for god's sake, it's not hard to see why.
I'm also not saying that's coming from you and, where it is, I usually take it as humorous banter. Even in yesterday's game thread, I was replying to that arrogant German polar bear and not you. Perhaps, I've read too many posts from people of his ilk.
I do agree completely about the tactical problems for Germany you outline. However, some of that is due to Italy having quality players that created those worries for Low.
Also agree that there's a lot of chance involved when teams are fairly evenly matched. For example, if Badstuber or Hummels had headed in the corner instead of Italy clearing it which led to the break where Montolivo found Balotelli then Prandelli would likely have been criticized for risking too much in not having two of Italy's only tall players defending but instead keeping all the attacking three deep for the counter.
My point is simply that the difference between Italy and Germany's talent in any best 11 they put out isn't so huge. The only gap comes when you consider that Germany have tons of talent right now at attacking wing/mid. However, all those players can't play at once and Italy has just as much quality through the midfield and defense.
It is a point that, when made it before yesterday's match, usually ended up being followed by ten of these
but not today.
Posted on 6/29/12 at 7:15 pm to wm72
The beauty of this board is that you and I can have this debate without calling each other idiots and telling each other to commit suicide.
Fwiw I do think Germany is one of the top 2 most talented teams in the world but they are very very young still. I think they'll develop an identity eventually. I just hope it's before 2014
Fwiw I do think Germany is one of the top 2 most talented teams in the world but they are very very young still. I think they'll develop an identity eventually. I just hope it's before 2014
Posted on 6/29/12 at 7:34 pm to hendersonshands
quote:
The beauty of this board is that you and I can have this debate without calling each other idiots and telling each other to commit suicide.
Completely agree.
quote:
Fwiw I do think Germany is one of the top 2 most talented teams in the world but they are very very young still. I think they'll develop an identity eventually. I just hope it's before 2014
I agree with that as well. I still think, from 2 years out, Germany is probably the favorite for 2014 after probably Brazil at home.
I just hope they don't hire Spalletti to get all those talented attacking mids turning recent sour grapes to champagne.
Posted on 6/30/12 at 2:01 am to wm72
Didn't Spaletti do the whole false 9 thing with Totti back in the day or am I thinking of someone else?
I want Jurgen Klopp. He built BvB the right way. They're a strong defensive team that plays a beautiful style. It's a real treat to watch.
I want Jurgen Klopp. He built BvB the right way. They're a strong defensive team that plays a beautiful style. It's a real treat to watch.
Posted on 6/30/12 at 2:06 am to hendersonshands
it will be
quote:
Klopp
Posted on 6/30/12 at 2:15 am to hendersonshands
quote:
Didn't Spaletti do the whole false 9 thing with Totti back in the day or am I thinking of someone else?
Yep.
I hope Klopp doesn't go to the national team. I think Dortmund could challenge for European honors if he stays. That team could be so good, and their youth system is top notch.
Posted on 6/30/12 at 2:25 am to crazy4lsu
quote:
. I think Dortmund could challenge for European honors if he stays
UEFA (Europa League). They've got to splash cash to win the League of Champions, and they will not do that (after their earlier financial debacle).
Plus, Die Mannschaft is the biggest deal in the world for the Germans bar none (in spite of his Dutch sounding surname).
Posted on 6/30/12 at 2:35 am to Dandy Lion
BvB is much deeper now than they were a year ago. I'll be surprised if they don't do well in the Champions League this year. Their attacking talent is so good and then you add in Reus.
Reus, Gotze, Kuba, Perisic, Lewandowski (if he stays), even Grosskreutz is good every now and then.
Reus, Gotze, Kuba, Perisic, Lewandowski (if he stays), even Grosskreutz is good every now and then.
Posted on 6/30/12 at 2:39 am to hendersonshands
I believe the other poster referred to coming out winners. In my opinion, they'd simply make a great run.
This post was edited on 6/30/12 at 2:41 am
Posted on 6/30/12 at 2:42 am to Dandy Lion
I don't know if they'll win it but I think they can make a deep run into the CL. Hell even Schalke made the semi finals when they were terrible a couple of years ago.
I feel bad for Gladbach that they got purged because they finally made it to European play.
I feel bad for Gladbach that they got purged because they finally made it to European play.
Posted on 6/30/12 at 2:44 am to hendersonshands
quote:
Hell even Schalke made the semi finals when they were terrible a couple of years ago.
hell, even the ruski's bunkered to a win.
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