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Message
re: More Madrid Backlash (sorry, quote wouldn´t let me enter it)
Posted on 5/4/13 at 11:20 am to Dandy Lion
Posted on 5/4/13 at 11:20 am to Dandy Lion
quote:
The basic rules of the sport, yes. Club history, style of play, etcétera, I don´t think so.
I understand that the Madrid fanbase demands more from their club than anyone else. Not only do they demand results, but they expect to be awed with the style of play. They want to see a Broadway performance and footballing dominance all rolled into one.
Obviously, I do not know nearly as much as you about Madrid, but I have read and learned some about their history and style. Since Ronaldo and Ozil are my two favorite players to watch (some of my other favorites are Pirlo, Ribery, Zlatan, Gotze, and Bale) I have grown to like Madrid. Naturally, I wanted to learn more about the club. I understand why the fan base is angry, but they are just being illogical at times.
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Posted on 5/4/13 at 11:36 am to Dandy Lion
quote:
Football is a way of life in Europe. Rationality and logic are rarely the dominant components of the equation.
i understand that. i reject that. that's complete stupidity/irrationality
the fact that some people (i'm not saying you, i'm talking generally about "europeans") consider this to be elevated thinking is the height of irony
this is similar to a quantitative analysis of soccer. i've seen you reject this as impossible, but that's pretty ignorant. any pattern/series of behaviors can be analyzed into numerical comparisons...yes including soccer (which is nothing more than a series of behavioral patterns in the end)
to summarize, i understand your point, but your point is ignorant, irrational, and an example of lower-level thinking
Posted on 5/4/13 at 11:48 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
the fact that some people (i'm not saying you, i'm talking generally about "europeans") consider this to be elevated thinking is the height of irony
Man, you´re grasping.
From where comes the ´elevated thinking´ concept? From baseball´s proverbial left field?
quote:
this is similar to a quantitative analysis of soccer. i've seen you reject this as impossible, but that's pretty ignorant. any pattern/series of behaviors can be analyzed into numerical comparisons...yes including soccer (which is nothing more than a series of behavioral patterns in the end)
No, the quantitative analysis suggested on this board referred to number of crosses, completed passes, etc. Mechanics, not behaviors.
Your oversimplification, and suggestion that a dynamic (as opposed to static) sport is solely the sum of behavioral patterns, needs ´fleshing out´. Please elaborate with detail.
quote:
to summarize, i understand your point, but your point is ignorant, irrational, and an example of lower-level thinking
Your hole deepens.
This post was edited on 5/4/13 at 12:07 pm
Posted on 5/4/13 at 12:35 pm to Dandy Lion
quote:
From where comes the ´elevated thinking´ concept?
your little tirade against Germany last night was basically teh same argument
quote:
Your oversimplification, and suggestion that a dynamic (as opposed to static) sport is solely the sum of behavioral patterns, needs ´fleshing out´. Please elaborate with detail.
i'm just stating that any set of behaviors in a given, set system can be analyzed/broken down into comparative, numerical units based on pattersn and success rates (obviously there will be different variables analyzed)
quote:
Your hole deepens.
the #1 goal of competitive sports is winning
in competitive league, stratifications emerge based on either funding or management decisions (there are only a certain number of qualified management options and everyone under that set suffers, and the set beneathe that, etc)
the #1 goal is still winning, but some teams can't. stoke is a good example. they're never going to have the finances to compete in the EPL (short of oil money). they have developed a style that almost ensures they won't be relegated, but it also ensures they will never win. since they're not going to win anyway, that second part is irrelevant. stoke is a success story in my mind.
on the other hand, swansea is a bigger success story....in the short term of the 2 styles, stoke's philosophy (defense, defense, defense) is shown to be more stable. plenty of swansea's have tried to compete by borrowing to pay for attacking talent and ended up in shambles.
swansea's emergence/success should be celebrated. if somehow they stay top flight for 20 years, if they adjust their style down the road, they shouldn't be resigned to their fate of their current reputation. they should adjust and adapt to compete, just as they're doing that now to compete. games change. styles change. new efficiencies are discovered. games change. styles change. etc etc
Posted on 5/4/13 at 12:40 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
swansea's emergence/success should be celebrated.
Well Swansea have kept the same philosophy through three different managers. If anything they've gotten more direct from Martinez to Rodgers to Laudrup, but they've committed to a philosophy, though they improved incrementally, rather than trying to do a QPR or Portsmouth.
Posted on 5/4/13 at 1:03 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
any pattern/series of behaviors can be analyzed into numerical comparisons
quote:
(which is nothing more than a series of behavioral patterns in the end)
This is a grossly Humistic point of view. While we're at it, let's quantify all of human action into a system of numericals.
Sport is irrational. Accept it. It's founded upon human emotion and believe it or not, doesn't always make sense. Madrid has a culture that you have never, and probably will never, truly accept and appreciate. And that's fine.
This post was edited on 5/4/13 at 1:04 pm
Posted on 5/4/13 at 1:06 pm to crazy4lsu
quote:
but they've committed to a philosophy
Yes they have. It has become the identity of the club. And if there comes a point in time where that identity is changed, and the culture of the club along with it, rest assured the locals will not be happy (what Dandy is saying, I believe).
Posted on 5/4/13 at 1:40 pm to LSUSOBEAST1
quote:
Sport is irrational. Accept it. It's founded upon human emotion and believe it or not, doesn't always make sense. Madrid has a culture that you have never, and probably will never, truly accept and appreciate. And that's fine.
One goal everyone can agree upon is that you are trying to win. Anything that is very counterproductive to achieving the central focus is irrational.
This post was edited on 5/4/13 at 1:41 pm
Posted on 5/4/13 at 1:53 pm to Vicks Kennel Club
I do agree with that to an extent. The goal of sport, and competition in general, is to win.
And I don't think Dandy would completely disagree with that either.
Considerations have to be had, though, that conform to the nature of the club, or organization, in question.
I doubt many locals would be thrilled if Brazil changed tactics to play like Stoke on the international stage, even if a World Cup trophy accompanied said change. The country has a footballing culture, and massive history, and going against that will cause friction.
I think Dandy is saying something similar, albeit on a smaller scale.
I can't think of a similar example for any sport in the US. Our culture truly does place winning above everything else, which could spark an additional conversation concerning the acceptance (or abstinence) towards polarizing athletes.
And I don't think Dandy would completely disagree with that either.
Considerations have to be had, though, that conform to the nature of the club, or organization, in question.
I doubt many locals would be thrilled if Brazil changed tactics to play like Stoke on the international stage, even if a World Cup trophy accompanied said change. The country has a footballing culture, and massive history, and going against that will cause friction.
I think Dandy is saying something similar, albeit on a smaller scale.
I can't think of a similar example for any sport in the US. Our culture truly does place winning above everything else, which could spark an additional conversation concerning the acceptance (or abstinence) towards polarizing athletes.
Posted on 5/4/13 at 2:05 pm to LSUSOBEAST1
quote:
I can't think of a similar example for any sport in the US. Our culture truly does place winning above everything else, which could spark an additional conversation concerning the acceptance (or abstinence) towards polarizing athletes.
A little different, but some Cubs fans are idiots and embrace the Lovable Losers stereotype. I think I brought this up earlier.
Posted on 5/4/13 at 2:13 pm to LSUSOBEAST1
Well two of the three major sports don't really have distinct stylistic discrepancy among teams. Football, maybe. But if LSU started running and gunning with a west coast offense or if Oregon started pounding it, no one would really care as long as Ws are collected.
Posted on 5/4/13 at 2:15 pm to Vicks Kennel Club
Yea, but that's because Cubs fans literally have no grasp of what winning feels like. Similar to the Saints for the first 40 years of their history. Now that we won one, the team is expected to go deep in the playoffs every year, and anything less is complete failure.
I just think the sporting culture in Europe is vastly different than in America. Power struggles aren't nearly as cyclic as they are in the United States, and I think that has led to many fans appreciating the pure nature of the sport (aesthetics, entertainment, etc) more than winning, to a certain extent.
I just think the sporting culture in Europe is vastly different than in America. Power struggles aren't nearly as cyclic as they are in the United States, and I think that has led to many fans appreciating the pure nature of the sport (aesthetics, entertainment, etc) more than winning, to a certain extent.
This post was edited on 5/4/13 at 2:18 pm
Posted on 5/4/13 at 3:03 pm to LSUSOBEAST1
quote:
let's quantify all of human action into a system of numericals.
economics <3
quote:
Madrid has a culture that you have never, and probably will never, truly accept and appreciate.
no, i won't, because frankly it's stupid
Posted on 5/4/13 at 3:06 pm to LSUSOBEAST1
quote:
I doubt many locals would be thrilled if Brazil changed tactics to play like Stoke on the international stage, even if a World Cup trophy accompanied said change
likely. dunga eperienced this to an extent
but the "beautiful game" is not effective at this time, so i mean...c'mon brazil
barca fans were upset with pep when he first took over barca. they changed their culture pretty fricking quickly
Posted on 5/4/13 at 3:16 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
but the "beautiful game" is not effective at this time, so i mean...c'mon brazil
False. Spain, Barcelona, Germany, Bayern, Dortmund and even United, Chelsea, City, Arsenal and Liverpool, among many, many others, still play the game beautifully. Competition has improved, and tactics along with it.
Tactical beauty can be appreciated as much as aesthetic beauty (see: my post in the Barça/Bayern game thread), and it's a shame people don't realize that.
Posted on 5/4/13 at 3:17 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
barca fans were upset with pep when he first took over barca. they changed their culture pretty fricking quickly
I don't recall this. I mean, Barca has been a passing team since Cruyff took over. Pep streamlined the philosophy to include more awareness of positioning with and without the ball, but the possession game has been a big part of who Barca was and is. Evidence here. LINK
Posted on 5/4/13 at 4:06 pm to LSUSOBEAST1
quote:
Tactical beauty can be appreciated as much as aesthetic beauty (see: my post in the Barça/Bayern game thread), and it's a shame people don't realize that.
Hear, hear.
Posted on 5/4/13 at 4:18 pm to LSUSOBEAST1
quote:
Tactical beauty can be appreciated as much as aesthetic beauty (see: my post in the Barça/Bayern game thread), and it's a shame people don't realize that.
I think the problem with the Real Madrid semifinal ties, was what looked to be the total lack of a tactical plan.
Posted on 5/4/13 at 4:20 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
barca fans were upset with pep when he first took over barca
No, many doubted whether or not he was ready. They felt it would be a three season ramp up to competitiveness.
Posted on 5/4/13 at 4:49 pm to LSUSOBEAST1
quote:
I do agree with that to an extent. The goal of sport, and competition in general, is to win.
And I don't think Dandy would completely disagree with that either.
Considerations have to be had, though, that conform to the nature of the club, or organization, in question.
I think Dandy is saying something similar, albeit on a smaller scale.
I can't think of a similar example for any sport in the US. Our culture truly does place winning above everything else, which could spark an additional conversation concerning the acceptance (or abstinence) towards polarizing athletes.
I want to make it clear that I'm not trying to attack Dandy, and I absolutely appreciate the information and alternative perspective he brings. That said, I'm absolutely ridiculing the notion of praising a team for sticking to their guns in a massacre while criticizing a team who made a legitimate effort at winning. I stand by that whether it's a cultural thing or not.
quote:
I doubt many locals would be thrilled if Brazil changed tactics to play like Stoke on the international stage, even if a World Cup trophy accompanied said change. The country has a footballing culture, and massive history, and going against that will cause friction.
I'm not denying this, but Brazilians should be smart enough to realize that nobody would give the first damn about their style of play if not for the 5 World Cups it brought them.
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