re: Is Liverpool still a "big" club?

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Leicester should be grouped in there also.

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what

Im good with those tiers. I'd be interested in how people would forecast those same teams heading into the future. I think Tottenham has the potential for the biggest jump, and arsenal the biggest fall.

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OP is probably just salty.

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Lol. Salty at what. I don't get emotionally involved with teams 6,000 miles away.

What I meant is that no English team is on the tier one level in Europe. Barca, Real, Atletico, Juventus, and Bayern are all ahead of them. The last five years or so have been terrible for the top teams in terms of how they actually play, which is a massive step down from the late noughties.

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I think it has some validity if you're talking about teams who can seriously compete in the UCL.

You could argue that Real, Barca, Bayern, Juve and Atletico are the only true "big clubs" in Europe right now. The best of the Premier League is a step down at the moment.

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I just read your reply. That's exactly what I meant. I think the divide is deeper than people realize, and the divide started before the massive influx of money into the PL with the new Sky deal.

Arsenal gets on SCH's illustrious tier 1 and all Chelsea has are multiple recent trophies and a European title. Maybe one day we'll reach the top.

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Since it's harder to dominate England and even harder now with the TV money for everybody, is it harder now to build up a team good enough to win in Europe?

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The greatest gulf for me is the tactical side of the game. I do think the winter break also helps continental teams as well, but in general, the tactical game week to week is better on the continent, which gives top teams a major advantage. What was the last major tactical innovation that started in the PL? It took a simple tactical shift by Conte for Chelsea to walk the league.

I'd also wager that all of the big five in Europe, as it were, would do equally as well in the PL week to week.

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Germany and Italy are great examples. Bayern and Juve don't have many major threats domestically at the moment, and they've been able to buy up the best talent from their league — even their biggest competitiors (BVB for Bayern, teams like Roma for Juve). Since they are so much better than most of their league, they can stay fresher for UCL matches and undercut their rivals with more money and prestige right now.

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I'm not sure that league race titles really explains much.

Even with losing players, it's not that Roma and Napoli or Dortmund haven't been as good as the second best teams in England most recent seasons.


This year, for example, both Roma and Napoli actually improved after selling Pjanic and Higuian (in the same way Atletico was usually improving instead of taking a step back after selling a top player or two).

That depth you mention is certainly an issue in the league races with Juve signing some players Roma or Napoli had (or could get). Juve hasn't won titles by actually beating Roma and Napoli head to head (this season, for example, the teams split the matches like most recent seasons) or doing better against the top of the table as much as by simply dominating the bottom of the table. Same holds true for most EPL champion seasons.


However, it's not really that Juve rests or rotates any more than clubs with very deep rosters like Chelsea or City.


It seems to me that it's simply down to better team construction. Rosters that match perfectly with what the team wants to do. Juve will set up to make Cuadrado very effective and got him knowing how he fits.


The top English teams with unlimited pocketbooks like ManU, City and Chelsea have not been nearly as impressive in identifying the right players to sign.


If there's anything about league differences that perhaps has hurt England's top teams, it may be better to consider whether the EPL style (and players you need to be successful) means rosters that aren't as equipped to deal with differing styles of play in Europe.

Managers like Conte, Mancini and Mazzari are constantly talking about how much they have to change their tactics in the EPL to match the opposition and fit the players they have on roster. Still, even with just a bit more tactical nuance, Conte waltzed Chelsea through the EPL.

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Even with losing players, it's not that Roma and Napoli or Dortmund haven't been as good as the second best teams in England most recent seasons.

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I wasn't meaning that at all. It's just that the gulf between Juve and Bayern and the field always seems bigger than the separation between the English contenders.

I think it's just because Juve and Bayern are that much better than everyone else. The second tier in these countries (Roma, Napoli, Dortmund, Sevilla, etc.) have proven to be higher quality than the English teams at times.

There's definitely more parity in England, but parity can often lead to worse quality all around. (Waves at the NFL)