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re: Will we look like fools if the administration keeps spouting off about Ukraine
Posted on 2/19/14 at 12:24 pm to DanTiger
Posted on 2/19/14 at 12:24 pm to DanTiger
quote:
More of a policy statement and not a direct threat.
"serious consequences" Really?
What were the serious consequences for Russia invading Georgia that Cheney spoke of?
quote:
Different administration. Policies and goals change.
So this is how you rationalize a double standard?
2
Posted on 2/19/14 at 12:27 pm to LSURussian
quote:
Here is how it will happen....
I agree 100% Russian.
Posted on 2/19/14 at 12:27 pm to beachdude
quote:
You will know how feckless this administration truly is if the Russians think they can send armed forces into a sovereign European nation to "assist" Ukrainian security/police forces in restoring order. There is no Soviet Union and this is not 1948, 1956, or 1968.
How is this different from the Bush administration's response to Russia invading Georgia? Is the Bush admin considered feckless for their milquetoast response to the previous Russian incursion? Or do we have to apply some double standard as a poster above implies? What is the criteria for applying that double standard?
Posted on 2/19/14 at 12:29 pm to LSURussian
quote:
LSU Russian...
Very plausible. Few Americans understand the ethnic makeup of the Ukraine or the history of that part of Europe. I would add that Yulia Tymoshenko will probably "disappear" or suffer some kind of strange illness.
Posted on 2/19/14 at 12:30 pm to WildTchoupitoulas
quote:
So this is how you rationalize a double standard?
I am not sure I follow your line of thinking. When this administration leaves office I don't believe the new one will have it's feet held to the fire over policies put in place by this one. The world understands how our electoral process works. Unless a treaty is signed, and sometimes even those are broken, policy changes with Presidents.
Posted on 2/19/14 at 12:33 pm to WildTchoupitoulas
quote:
How is this different from the Bush administration's response to Russia invading Georgia? Is the Bush admin considered feckless for their milquetoast response to the previous Russian incursion? Or do we have to apply some double standard as a poster above implies? What is the criteria for applying that double standard?
I hope you are not referring to me regarding your statement about double standards. I honestly remember very little about the Georgia affair and Cheney's involvement in it so it would be foolish for me to comment on it. I don't have the time to read up on it today but if it went down as you have indicated it likely made us look weak. There are few things that upset me as much as empty threats.
Posted on 2/19/14 at 12:39 pm to WildTchoupitoulas
quote:
How is this different from the Bush administration's response...Georgia...
There are 45 million Ukrainians and the country is in Europe. Georgia is fractured by various contiguous ethnic groups (Abkhazians, Ossetians, Chechens, Armenians, etc.) and two religions. Also, Stalin was a Georgian.
Posted on 2/19/14 at 12:43 pm to DanTiger
quote:
I am not sure I follow your line of thinking.
In 2008 the armed forces of Georgia reclaimed Georgian territory that had been occupied by Russian forces since the first Ossetian war in the early 90s. This led to the Russians sending troops into areas of Georgia as well as a brief naval engagement. At the time, Cheney issued this statement:
"Russian aggression must not go unanswered, and its continuation would have serious consequences for its relations with the United States, as well as the broader international community." [emphasis added]
To this day parts of Georgia are still under occupation by Russian armed forces.
Fast forward to today and we see the Russians beginning to gear up for a similar invasion of Ukraine under the similar pretense of defending ethnic Russians from oppression. Similarly our current administration issues vague warnings. And NOW 'we' want to know if THESE warnings will make us look foolish. My question is, if past, similar, warnings were issued to no effect, did it make us look foolish? If 'no', then why would we look foolish this time? If 'yes', then why all the acrimony over Obama doing the same thing the Bush admin did?
It looks like the Obama admin is being held to a different standard than that of the Bush admin.
Posted on 2/19/14 at 12:45 pm to DanTiger
quote:
I hope you are not referring to me regarding your statement about double standards. I honestly remember very little about the Georgia affair and Cheney's involvement in it so it would be foolish for me to comment on it.
So then, there's your answer, no, we won't end up looking any more foolish this time than we did last time.
It's not like this hasn't happened before for us to look back on as an example.
The problem with Americans (and also their saving grace) is that we DON'T look back - we look forward. This leads us to have, in general, a VERY poor understanding of history.
Posted on 2/19/14 at 12:48 pm to beachdude
quote:
Also, Stalin was a Georgian.
Well, there you go.
What more need be said?
Thanks, Obama!
Posted on 2/19/14 at 12:49 pm to beachdude
quote:I've worked in Ukraine, from Odessa on the Black Sea which is heavily ethnic Russian, to Kiev which is about 50/50 Russian/Ukrainian and all the way to western Ukraine in Lviv, which is mostly ethnic Ukrainians and Poles.
LSU Russian...
Very plausible. Few Americans understand the ethnic makeup of the Ukraine or the history of that part of Europe
So I speak from some experience working alongside and with the various ethnic groups there not from just reading a history book.
I speak Russian but not Ukrainian so when I was in Lviv, I had to be careful not to speak Russian. I forgot a couple of times and when I said a Russian word, I got some stern looks from the locals. I would apologize and they would forgive me and we'd move on.
On the other hand, when I worked in Odessa I spoke Russian with the locals. Most of them didn't know how to speak Ukrainian.
It's a bi-polar, schizophrenic country.
quote:She's already in prison after losing the Presidential election to Yanukovych the first time he was elected. She is reportedly ill and the EU has asked for her to be released to travel to Germany for treatment for her illness but Yanukovych won't allow her to be released.
I would add that Yulia Tymoshenko will probably "disappear" or suffer some kind of strange illness.
Posted on 2/19/14 at 12:53 pm to WildTchoupitoulas
quote:
So then, there's your answer, no, we won't end up looking any more foolish this time than we did last time.
Good Lord! That was the most selective editing I have ever seen. Did you read my last two sentences???
quote:
I don't have the time to read up on it today but if it went down as you have indicated it likely made us look weak. There are few things that upset me as much as empty threats.
Posted on 2/19/14 at 1:06 pm to WildTchoupitoulas
quote:
It looks like the Obama admin is being held to a different standard than that of the Bush admin.
Yes. You are exactly right. He is being held to a different standard. You know why? Because hope and change. Obama set the standard. He was better. An improvement. A long list of grievances incurred during the Bush administration was going to be set right.
And all he has done is the same shite Bush did. 16 years of the same god damn shitbag excuse for leadership.
You are god damn right I hold Obama to a higher standard. He told us to do so. If he can't live up to his promises then that is a flaw in HIS character. Not mine.
Posted on 2/19/14 at 2:04 pm to AUin02
quote:
Yes. You are exactly right. He is being held to a different standard. You know why? Because hope and change. Obama set the standard. He was better. An improvement. A long list of grievances incurred during the Bush administration was going to be set right.
And all he has done is the same shite Bush did. 16 years of the same god damn shitbag excuse for leadership.
You are god damn right I hold Obama to a higher standard. He told us to do so. If he can't live up to his promises then that is a flaw in HIS character. Not mine.
Posted on 2/19/14 at 2:15 pm to JEAUXBLEAUX
quote:
Obama will sacrifice the people of Ukraine. Baltics next?
When the hell did the Ukraine get to be Obama's responsibility?
Posted on 2/19/14 at 2:22 pm to DeltaDoc
quote:
Neither Obama or Kerry seem to realize that when you take a position on the international stage, if you are not willing to back up those words, the people will not take you seriously anymore.
It's true in pretty much any business. It's just neither Kerry or Obama have every been in the real world.
Posted on 2/19/14 at 2:28 pm to Ghostfacedistiller
quote:
It's just neither Kerry or Obama have been in the real world.
I hate to defend him, but Kerry was once upon a time in the real world. (It was 45 years ago and he may have learned all the wrong lessons and/or drawn all the wrong conclusions.)
Posted on 2/19/14 at 2:38 pm to beachdude
quote:
I hate to defend him, but Kerry was once upon a time in the real world.
Agreed. Never is too far, but he's been pretty insolated for quite some time.
Posted on 2/19/14 at 2:38 pm to beachdude
Kerry's service in Vietnam doesn't count?
Posted on 2/19/14 at 2:45 pm to AUin02
Yeah, Obama was the first presidential candidate to run as a reformer, thus he should be held to a higher standard.
...And Bush never said we shouldn't be in the business of nation building.
Go it.
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