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Where we screwed up regarding Ukraine
Posted on 3/17/14 at 1:24 pm
Posted on 3/17/14 at 1:24 pm
Of course Obamas perceived weakness may have emboldened Putin but let's think back farther and realize why we are in this mess. It starts when we promised to protect Ukraine if they destroyed their nukes. If we had allowed them nukes, then they have power and leverage to protect their own sovereignty against anyone. Russia likely wouldn't be invading them, and even if they did we wouldn't have an obligation to be involved in any way. We could let them battle it out like we should since we have nothing to gain there by being involved. By trying to promote peace through nuke destruction and treaties, we weakened Ukraine and enabled this situation. Ironically we set the stage for there to be no peace. Just my opinion.
7
Posted on 3/17/14 at 1:28 pm to deltaland
I think this is true and every nation will realize that having nukes is the only way to protect their sovereignty. And all you have to do is look toward North Korea to see how reluctant powers are to challenge even the most corrupt nuclear regimes.
This post was edited on 3/17/14 at 1:29 pm
Posted on 3/17/14 at 1:42 pm to deltaland
We didn't screw up.
We want fewer countries to have nuclear weapons. I prefer that the Ukraine not have nuclear weapons as this lowers the risk they could fall into the hands of terrorist wack jobs.
Anyway, what is happening in the Ukraine isn't about us...it's between Russia and Ukraine.
Has nothing to do with the U.S.
We want fewer countries to have nuclear weapons. I prefer that the Ukraine not have nuclear weapons as this lowers the risk they could fall into the hands of terrorist wack jobs.
Anyway, what is happening in the Ukraine isn't about us...it's between Russia and Ukraine.
Has nothing to do with the U.S.
Posted on 3/17/14 at 1:51 pm to deltaland
quote:The U.S. never promised that.
It starts when we promised to protect Ukraine if they destroyed their nukes.
The agreement was "the United States of America, Russia, and the United Kingdom signed the 1994 Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances, pledging to respect Ukraine territorial integrity." [link=(agreement with ukraine to give up its nukes)]LINK[/link]
There was no language in the agreement which committed any of the three parties to defend or "protect" Ukraine's sovereignty.
Russia violated its pledge to "respect" Ukraine's territorial integrity.
The U.S. has not violated the agreement.
Posted on 3/17/14 at 1:57 pm to deltaland
It amazes me that few people understand what this is all about.
OP, swing and a miss, brother.
OP, swing and a miss, brother.
Posted on 3/17/14 at 1:59 pm to LSURussian
quote:
Russia violated its pledge to "respect" Ukraine's territorial integrity.
The U.S. has not violated the agreement.
Russia may have physically violated it with their own troops, but please don't deny that the US was violating the agreement with our hands on approach to controlling their government for our benefit. It's a major economic and military win for the west if we can get into Ukraine.
Posted on 3/17/14 at 2:01 pm to LSURussian
quote:
Russia violated its pledge to "respect" Ukraine's territorial integrity.
Regardless of fraudulent voting, which we CAN'T prove, if an area (on the other side of the world) votes overwhelmingly to join another country who are we to step in and tell them they can't?
Is our government THAT arrogant that they believe they can take not only the freedom of the American people but the freedom of people clear across the globe?
I thought we were FOR democracy?
This post was edited on 3/17/14 at 2:02 pm
Posted on 3/17/14 at 2:04 pm to theunknownknight
That's a great point.
It's remarkable that we said it was unconstitutional for Crimea to secede, yet it is constitutional for us to manipulate the forming of Ukraine's new government.
It's remarkable that we said it was unconstitutional for Crimea to secede, yet it is constitutional for us to manipulate the forming of Ukraine's new government.
Posted on 3/17/14 at 2:07 pm to LSURussian
That's my point, I'm not saying we have to intervene militarily but by being a part of the agreement we are obligated to be involved somehow, likely with sanctions on Russia that could negatively affect our economy. Should have let Ukraine have nukes, then their territorial integrity would be respected without relying solely on "promises" from countries who never keep promises. Peace through strength
Posted on 3/17/14 at 2:10 pm to Sleeping Tiger
Wonder where the NATO voting monitors were for this election like they were for ours back in '12?
Posted on 3/17/14 at 2:27 pm to theunknownknight
quote:You and MoSleepingGrayTigerBack have completely missed the point of what "territorial integrity is.
Russia violated its pledge to "respect" Ukraine's territorial integrity.
Regardless of fraudulent voting, which we CAN'T prove, if an area (on the other side of the world) votes overwhelmingly to join another country who are we to step in and tell them they can't?
Russia violated its end of the agreement, not by providing for a referendum, but by using its military to invade a part of sovereign Ukrainian territory.
Posted on 3/17/14 at 2:31 pm to LSURussian
Exactly. I'm sure he defends Kim Jongs re election with 100 percent of the vote as legitimate democracy too.
Posted on 3/17/14 at 2:36 pm to theunknownknight
quote:
if an area (on the other side of the world) votes overwhelmingly to join another country who are we to step in and tell them they can't?
Is our government THAT arrogant that they believe they can take not only the freedom of the American people but the freedom of people clear across the globe?
I thought we were FOR democracy?
But it wasn't democracy and the ballot didn't even give people opposed to joining Russia the choice to stay part of Ukraine. That and the vote to even have the referendum only took place b/c Russian troops stormed the parliament and made them do it at gun point with a 100% of the politicians saying lets have referendum.
Posted on 3/17/14 at 2:41 pm to LSURussian
quote:
You and MoSleepingGrayTigerBack have completely missed the point of what "territorial integrity is.
No, I get what territorial integrity is.
I feel that installing a government that will side with western interests is an act of aggression on the territorial agreement.
Posted on 3/17/14 at 2:51 pm to LSURussian
quote:
You and MoSleepingGrayTigerBack have completely missed the point of what "territorial integrity is.
Russia violated its end of the agreement, not by providing for a referendum, but by using its military to invade a part of sovereign Ukrainian territory.
I still don't see how this is our problem
Posted on 3/17/14 at 3:15 pm to theunknownknight
quote:
I thought we were FOR democracy?
LINK
quote:
The referendum process was a travesty. Thousands of invading soldiers, no campaigning to hear differing views, no choice on the ballot for the status quo, intimidation of opponents, and a lightning-fast schedule after the local government is overthrown under the watch of armed men in unmarked camouflage fatigues. Democracy? You tell me.
this is telling:
quote:
Before the propaganda campaign, a poll reported in The Washington Post found a majority of Crimeans were not exactly yearning to join Russia. More than half said their homeland was Crimea, and 35% said Ukraine. About 12 % of Crimeans are Muslim Tatars who despise Russia. About one-quarter are ethnic Ukrainians. You can bet they feel absolutely no affection for Russia today.
but at gunpoint 96% vote to join Russia.
quote:
In this twilight zone of make-believe, Russian troops invade after removing the insignias from their uniforms and Putin explains, "You can go to a store and buy a uniform," claiming they are local "self-defense forces." Maybe Crimean shops also sell machine guns and armored personnel carriers. In this world of double-speak and misinformation, Moscow is manipulating the message, intimidating, twisting facts and lying -- the more absurd the propaganda the better.
This is why we should care:
quote:
Look for claims of "requests for protection" from Moscow. After all, how can Moscow not help. And ignore the Russian agents sowing unrest. The unrest is the required pretext. Russia will come and "pacify." This tactic was not invented by Putin; it left a fetid track in the history of European empire-building, ethnic cleansing and warfare.
This post was edited on 3/17/14 at 3:17 pm
Posted on 3/17/14 at 3:18 pm to deltaland
Imagine what would happen to the American citizens if they took away our constitutional rights covered under the second amendment.
Posted on 3/17/14 at 3:25 pm to BobBoucher
So we should be more concerned about the disenfranchisement of people across the globe, possibly using military force to protect them...
but don't seem to care about our own disenfranchisement in the USA, our own votes being canceled out by illegals etc that don't need voter ids.
We are concerned for their freedoms but sit idly by while our own rights are eroding away?
but don't seem to care about our own disenfranchisement in the USA, our own votes being canceled out by illegals etc that don't need voter ids.
We are concerned for their freedoms but sit idly by while our own rights are eroding away?
This post was edited on 3/17/14 at 3:26 pm
Posted on 3/17/14 at 3:27 pm to deltaland
There is some truth to nukes being the best deterrent, especially for smaller countries.
Posted on 3/17/14 at 3:27 pm to theunknownknight
quote:
I still don't see how this is our problem
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