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The mass freakout over Bret Stephen's climate change article on NYT

Posted on 5/3/17 at 12:26 am
Posted by HailHailtoMichigan!
Mission Viejo, CA
Member since Mar 2012
69308 posts
Posted on 5/3/17 at 12:26 am
What is wrong with anything he said? Why is NYT losing subscribers over this one article? Why is the liberal that hired him getting hate mail?

LINK
quote:


In the final stretch of last year’s presidential race, Hillary Clinton and her team thought they were, if not 100 percent right, then very close.

Right on the merits. Confident in their methods. Sure of their chances. When Bill Clinton suggested to his wife’s advisers that, considering Brexit, they might be underestimating the strength of the populist tide, the campaign manager, Robby Mook, had a bulletproof answer: The data run counter to your anecdotes.

Mook belonged to a new breed of political technologists with little time for retail campaigning and limitless faith in the power of models and algorithms to minimize uncertainty and all but predict the future.

There’s a lesson here. We live in a world in which data convey authority. But authority has a way of descending to certitude, and certitude begets hubris. From Robert McNamara to Lehman Brothers to Stronger Together, cautionary tales abound.


quote:

Last October, the Pew Research Center published a survey on the politics of climate change. Among its findings: Just 36 percent of Americans care “a great deal” about the subject. Despite 30 years of efforts by scientists, politicians and activists to raise the alarm, nearly two-thirds of Americans are either indifferent to or only somewhat bothered by the prospect of planetary calamity.

Why? The science is settled. The threat is clear. Isn’t this one instance, at least, where 100 percent of the truth resides on one side of the argument?

Well, not entirely. As Andrew Revkin wrote last year about his storied career as an environmental reporter at The Times, “I saw a widening gap between what scientists had been learning about global warming and what advocates were claiming as they pushed ever harder to pass climate legislation.” The science was generally scrupulous. The boosters who claimed its authority weren’t.


quote:

Anyone who has read the 2014 report of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change knows that, while the modest (0.85 degrees Celsius, or about 1.5 degrees Fahrenheit) warming of the earth since 1880 is indisputable, as is the human influence on that warming, much else that passes as accepted fact is really a matter of probabilities. That’s especially true of the sophisticated but fallible models and simulations by which scientists attempt to peer into the climate future. To say this isn’t to deny science. It’s to acknowledge it honestly.


quote:

By now I can almost hear the heads exploding. They shouldn’t, because there’s another lesson here — this one for anyone who wants to advance the cause of good climate policy. As Revkin wisely noted, hyperbole about climate “not only didn’t fit the science at the time but could even be counterproductive if the hope was to engage a distracted public.”

Let me put it another way. Claiming total certainty about the science traduces the spirit of science and creates openings for doubt whenever a climate claim proves wrong. Demanding abrupt and expensive changes in public policy raises fair questions about ideological intentions. Censoriously asserting one’s moral superiority and treating skeptics as imbeciles and deplorables wins few converts.

None of this is to deny climate change or the possible severity of its consequences. But ordinary citizens also have a right to be skeptical of an overweening scientism. They know — as all environmentalists should — that history is littered with the human wreckage of scientific errors married to political power.


I see nothing in the article that is wrong or even offensive. He admits global warming exists, he admits man plays a role in causing it, and he suggests that the reason that it remains a rather tame issue to the average american is because of a "boy who cried wolf" type of situation.

quote:

Perhaps if there had been less certitude and more second-guessing in Clinton’s campaign, she’d be president. Perhaps if there were less certitude about our climate future, more Americans would be interested in having a reasoned conversation about it.


It's simply not in the spirit of science to assume that something is certain. The reaction to this piece from the left is a sign of the artificial appreciation they have for science. They shut their eyes and ears to people and ideas who question their certainty.

Dare I say Mr. Stephens, a noted anti-trump columnist, is a heretic in their eyes?
Posted by olddawg26
Member since Jan 2013
24593 posts
Posted on 5/3/17 at 12:35 am to
I think it's silly for either side to be 100% sure of something. The people who scream about climate change dooming the planet in 10 years are just as useful in debate as the people saying humans have 0 affect on the climate. There's no use for any complete certainty or faith in the lab. Once you bring emotion or outside persuasion into the argument you're useless to the rational people in the middle making progress. The truth lies somewhere in the middle of these stances as it most usually does.
Posted by CamdenTiger
Member since Aug 2009
62450 posts
Posted on 5/3/17 at 12:38 am to
Most people just know there's nothing they can do about it. So, they don't GAShite. Yell, and scream all you want, but changing you habits( entire life) for a possible one degree change over the next hundred years, just not convincing enough...
Posted by bonhoeffer45
Member since Jul 2016
4367 posts
Posted on 5/3/17 at 12:45 am to
Eh, frick em if they can't handle diversity of opinion. Especially when it is merely just within a range of agreed upon positions you said are acceptable.

And you lose the privilege of claiming "liberalism" when you can't handle discussion of unpleasant opinions and deal with disagreement by trying to shame away instead of dismantling through empirical deconstruction. Its the opposite of science or liberalism.


...For context, this is the same paper that employed or gave a platform for Bill Kristol for over a decade.

This is something they do on the Op-ed side of the paper.

If you subscribed thinking you were getting a Daily Kos newsletter, then you should unsubscribe and go back to the safety of your carefully culled Facebook feed that doesn't pop up any triggering articles that may offend your beliefs.

I say this as someone that thinks climate change denial, and the groups and people that foster it or the complacency currently going on, is going to go down in history as one of the biggest dark spots in modern civilization. But you don't fix the problem through entrenchment, refusal to engage, anti-intellectual approaches, and slacktevism.
This post was edited on 5/3/17 at 12:48 am
Posted by aminhamenina014
Mobile, AL
Member since Mar 2016
80 posts
Posted on 5/3/17 at 12:48 am to
People are freaking out because climate change is real and potentially destructive, and employing a crank denialist is not the best way to get diversity of opinion on the NYT editorial board. There are plenty of other viewpoints they could include that would be different from what they have.
Posted by texashorn
Member since May 2008
13122 posts
Posted on 5/3/17 at 12:49 am to
quote:

he suggests that the reason that it remains a rather tame issue to the average american is because of a "boy who cried wolf" type of situation

Democrats screamed that we were running out of oil in the late 70s and late 2010s... followed soon thereafter by big oil booms producing gluts.
Posted by HailHailtoMichigan!
Mission Viejo, CA
Member since Mar 2012
69308 posts
Posted on 5/3/17 at 12:51 am to
quote:

People are freaking out because climate change is real and potentially destructive, and employing a crank denialist is not the best way to get diversity of opinion on the NYT editorial board. There are plenty of other viewpoints they could include that would be different from what they have.


Know how I know you did not read his op-ed?
Posted by MMauler
Member since Jun 2013
19216 posts
Posted on 5/3/17 at 12:56 am to
If there was any doubt that this SCAM is the left's cult/religion, this should remove all doubt.

And just like a cult, you can NEVER question the religion of true believers/Kool-aid drinkers.
This post was edited on 5/3/17 at 12:58 am
Posted by aminhamenina014
Mobile, AL
Member since Mar 2016
80 posts
Posted on 5/3/17 at 12:59 am to
I did read the op-ed, and it's inane. I don't understand why conservatives have such opposition to acknowledging the reality of climate change and the dangers it can cause. Well, besides the fact that denial pisses off liberals, and they enjoy seeing the other side get upset.
Posted by aminhamenina014
Mobile, AL
Member since Mar 2016
80 posts
Posted on 5/3/17 at 1:00 am to
Like, you could say the existence of gravity is uncertain and "a matter of probabilities". That doesn't mean engineers and physicists should proceed as if it might not exist.
Posted by bonhoeffer45
Member since Jul 2016
4367 posts
Posted on 5/3/17 at 1:01 am to
quote:

People are freaking out because climate change is real and potentially destructive, and employing a crank denialist is not the best way to get diversity of opinion on the NYT editorial board. There are plenty of other viewpoints they could include that would be different from what they have.



I might be a bit more amiable to this if Stephen's hadn't basically adjusted to a position within the bounds of that consensus view.

My personal issue is he basically makes a very shitty and incomplete argument. If this is real, is an issue, then why is inaction justifiable? It is basically an argument built not on coherently constructed arguments but just trying to pick apart others.

Which I think would be well addressed with a follow up piece that deconstructs that. And in allowing that process to play out, because even the echo chamber seekers end up better informed because they learned the full scope of an argument strain and what the counter-points are. Or just clarifies the fallacy of the tactics Stephens is using. Which would serve to better inform the reader.

There is this weird projection that everyone but themselves are these child like impressionable people that if we just expose them to inappropriate viewpoints it will corrupt them entirely. So you get shite like this or enormous catastrophizing of things like Anne Coulter speaking.
Posted by Roaad
White Privilege Broker
Member since Aug 2006
76505 posts
Posted on 5/3/17 at 1:01 am to
quote:

I did read the op-ed, and it's inane.
which part, specifically
Posted by HailHailtoMichigan!
Mission Viejo, CA
Member since Mar 2012
69308 posts
Posted on 5/3/17 at 1:06 am to
He DOES acknowledge climate change in the article. What he also acknowledges it that the models are much more UNCERTAIN as to the EXTENT of how damaging it may be.

This matters because climate change policies affect real people and real communities.

Should we craft policy based on false certitude?
Posted by aminhamenina014
Mobile, AL
Member since Mar 2016
80 posts
Posted on 5/3/17 at 1:11 am to
quote:

which part, specifically

The idea that political messaging and public policy involving climate change should reflect the small degree of uncertainty that is characteristic of all scientific research. While there are limits to our ability to observe and model the outside world, the overwhelming probability is that climate change is real and man-made, and action should be taken as if that were the case.

The idea that models are "uncertain" in any meaningful sense exists in total contradiction with a vast body of evidence. You might as well be uncertain about the existence of gravity.
Posted by texashorn
Member since May 2008
13122 posts
Posted on 5/3/17 at 1:13 am to
quote:

the overwhelming probability is that climate change is real and man-made, and action should be taken as if that were the case.

So war with China is on the horizon?
Posted by aminhamenina014
Mobile, AL
Member since Mar 2016
80 posts
Posted on 5/3/17 at 1:13 am to
Why would it be?
Posted by texashorn
Member since May 2008
13122 posts
Posted on 5/3/17 at 1:16 am to
Because they are the world's leader in pollution.

We can stick a gun in our mouth and pull the trigger all day long, but it's like pissing in the Pacific unless China's emissions are addressed.
Posted by HailHailtoMichigan!
Mission Viejo, CA
Member since Mar 2012
69308 posts
Posted on 5/3/17 at 1:18 am to
Why do you keep comparing gravity, a law, with AGW, a theory? The law of gravity describes WHAT happens without describing WHY. Einstein's theory of relativity attempts to explain WHY gravity happens.

Climate change is a law. AGW is a theory as to WHY it happens.

You cannot prove for certainty that relativity or AGW exist, and you cannot DISPROVE gravity and climate change.

Your comparison is not valid.
Posted by aminhamenina014
Mobile, AL
Member since Mar 2016
80 posts
Posted on 5/3/17 at 1:19 am to
China is taking steps to improve their emissions situation. Every country is really, it's just happening very slowly. The big obstacle to international cooperation that can address this matter in a serious way is the denial in the United States which prevents any significant agreement from getting through Congress.

Converting to non-carbon forms of energy really isn't that hard. Prices for solar and wind electricity are starting to dip below those for coal, and there's been very little investment in it so far. It would create a ton of jobs too - in research, manufacturing, engineering, and so on.
Posted by MMauler
Member since Jun 2013
19216 posts
Posted on 5/3/17 at 1:20 am to
quote:

I don't understand why conservatives have such opposition to acknowledging the reality of climate change and the dangers it can cause.


How can anyone with an IQ over 10 believe this COMPLETE F*CKING SCAM/CULT?

Oh, and ask yourself this -- since you are so concerned with conservative opposition, why has the left completely politicized this?

In answering the question, just think about the "solution" the left is offering and has been offering for the last 20 years.
This post was edited on 5/3/17 at 1:27 am
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