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re: Is being racist always wrong?

Posted on 4/27/14 at 8:39 am to
Posted by SlowFlowPro
Simple Solutions to Complex Probs
Member since Jan 2004
423027 posts
Posted on 4/27/14 at 8:39 am to
quote:

I repeat, that the superior races have a right because they have a duty. They have the duty to civilize the inferior races ….

this same argument has been used since antiquity with all sorts of variables (including race, obviously)

quote:

Our right to the form this country was justified on white supremacy.

it was really justified on military and technological supremacy, if we're talking about reality

in this very same time period, white europeans went to war with plenty of other white europeans. i bet they said very similar statements to the one i quoted above in the process. they just didn't use race
Posted by TrueTiger
Chicken's most valuable
Member since Sep 2004
68101 posts
Posted on 4/27/14 at 8:41 am to
quote:

white europeans went to war with plenty of other white europeans.


Like I've said before, nothing kills white people as effectively as other white people.
Posted by SlowFlowPro
Simple Solutions to Complex Probs
Member since Jan 2004
423027 posts
Posted on 4/27/14 at 8:42 am to
and let me just say, in response to the OP, i define racism as judging a person solely on race, which is pretty in line with how the OP describes it (you can only feel superior if you judge a person based solely on race)

and that's wrong in every instance, imho

let me add this caveat: judging a person of a particular race who is acting in accordance with a shitty culture of that race is fine, to me. i separate culture and race completely and i judge cultures early and often.
Posted by SlowFlowPro
Simple Solutions to Complex Probs
Member since Jan 2004
423027 posts
Posted on 4/27/14 at 8:44 am to
quote:

Like I've said before, nothing kills white people as effectively as other white people.

hell look at Africa post-colonialization. other than extreme situations (leopold's colonies), they are killing their own race much more than white colonialists ever did. same with arabs in the middle east
Posted by miamiman55
Miami
Member since Feb 2008
219 posts
Posted on 4/27/14 at 8:44 am to
Massive efforts of assimilation and indoctrination, historically unparalleled in terms of intention,and the documented invention of race with which it coincided,were taken to keep up appearances I suppose?

Posted by ShortyRob
Member since Oct 2008
82116 posts
Posted on 4/27/14 at 8:47 am to
quote:

Massive efforts of assimilation and indoctrination, historically unparalleled in terms of intention,and the documented invention of race with which it coincided,were taken to keep up appearances I suppose?



I'm just going to throw this out there to foster discussion and see the responses.

Assuming that all peoples of the Earth were on this planet roughly the same amount of time, what factors caused the situation where the people of Africa and North America were so VASTLY behind the rest of the world(not just the whites) in terms of technological advancement?
Posted by miamiman55
Miami
Member since Feb 2008
219 posts
Posted on 4/27/14 at 8:48 am to
Racial taxonomy and hierarchy since antiquity?

This conversation is going nowhere...
Posted by SlowFlowPro
Simple Solutions to Complex Probs
Member since Jan 2004
423027 posts
Posted on 4/27/14 at 8:49 am to
quote:

Massive efforts of assimilation and indoctrination, historically unparalleled in terms of intention,and the documented invention of race with which it coincided,were taken to keep up appearances I suppose?

humans evolve and progress

had we found the new world 2-3 centuries prior (ignoring the fact that more than 90% of natives died the generation prior to our colonizations due to disease), we would have just slaughtered and imprisoned what few remained as slaves

i don't see why you're arguing that is a superior model
Posted by Bestbank Tiger
Premium Member
Member since Jan 2005
71287 posts
Posted on 4/27/14 at 8:49 am to
quote:


Utter nonsense. Colonialism, especially European colonialism, was an arms race in terms of economic resources. The idea was to collect as many raw materials from different areas of the world and bring them back for processing in the native land.


Exactly. It was basically about free stuff, and that goes back to long before present-day racial classifications were invented.

quote:

In early empires, such as the Babylonians and Assyrians, conquered peoples provided slave labor and military numbers - a different type of resource but a resource nonetheless.


And others were even more "colonialist" -- the Persians allowed local self governance in exchange for tribute.
Posted by SlowFlowPro
Simple Solutions to Complex Probs
Member since Jan 2004
423027 posts
Posted on 4/27/14 at 8:52 am to
quote:

Racial taxonomy and hierarchy since antiquity?

uh, yeah

the Greeks claim Africans were burnt by the sun. that is an easy example of racial taxonomy and hierarchy
Posted by Antonio Moss
Baton Rouge
Member since Mar 2006
48328 posts
Posted on 4/27/14 at 8:53 am to
quote:

there is nothing special about "race" in this context


Correct. It is simply about resources. Every single conquering civilization believed they were superior to others for a variety of reasons. It's human nature. To argue that this idea of superiority originated during European colonialism is nonsense.

Posted by RCDfan1950
United States
Member since Feb 2007
34981 posts
Posted on 4/27/14 at 8:56 am to
quote:

Since the beginning of time, groups have warred, conquered, and enslaved one another for some type of gain in resources. The idea that this entire practice was rooted in racism is nonsense to anyone who studies it.


There it is. The whole racism meme is about who gets what, how much...and how/why do they get it.

Egalitarian ideology supposes that the weak should be systematically rewarded by seizing economic affluence from the strong, to equalize affluence/power throughout the classes. Merit or character-based qualifiers, nws.

In effect, reward the weak or even immoral, and punish the strong. Could be calamitous and suicidal. Re, Bundy's "sitting on the porch" commentary.

Is it really true that White genes are "recessive"? What does that mean? Does it mean that in a White/Black union...that Black genes/characteristics will be bio-chemically dominant? It is easily observed that (generally so) that Black genes tend toward more physical aggression; and re "Bell Curve" stats, it's not hard to imagine why. So, it would not be a stretch to suspect or scientifically qualify that such aggression is reflected at the most basic chemical levels. Fascinating.

Regardless, if 'value' and relative 'superiority' are (ideally) measured by MLK's rubric of moral "character" as opposed to raw physical/intellectual power...then a lot of the antipathy and division and self-worth defined by worldly status/affluence...goes away. If not...then the "wailing and gnashing of teeth" game goes on.

IMHO, BOTH will. And the only philosophical explanation for such a paradoxical eventuality, is found in the Quantum Paradigm. Parallel Universes..."many mansions". We become the essence of what we CHOOSE to believe. Fine with me, though I realize that such is utter insanity in the current, general worldview.

What-a-scene!

Posted by SlowFlowPro
Simple Solutions to Complex Probs
Member since Jan 2004
423027 posts
Posted on 4/27/14 at 8:56 am to
quote:

Every single conquering civilization believed they were superior to others for a variety of reasons.

i mean physically conquering your foes is going to give you a sense of superiority. hell there is a laundry list of "insults" that we can discuss that man has created in this scenario. like eating conquered foes, raping the women/killing children (to end their pure genetic lines), cutting off various holy body parts (to prevent the proper death/ascendance into whatever heaven they believe in), etc

these are all strictly, "i am better than you b/c i am more powerful than you and you don't deserve the respect of common human decencies, because you were so weak".

again, would it have been better to commit good ole genocide instead? racism is terrible, but it's better than how we dealt with conquered foes in previous eras of human history. it's going to end badly for the conquered regardless
Posted by miamiman55
Miami
Member since Feb 2008
219 posts
Posted on 4/27/14 at 9:10 am to


Yes, humans practices evolve, good "point". The question concerns the role of race in colonization; to this question, racial taxonomy and natural groups were incorporated in light of European colonization and played a major motivating factor. I direct you to a quote from the P.M. of France, which you apparently dismissed for reasons unbeknownst to me.

Racial taxonomy did not exist in any legitimized sense of discriminating "value" prior to the enlightenment. If you didn't know that prior, or don't believe me off hand given my B.A. in philosophy and political science, I will differ to your ability to use Google. Your inability to stay on topic simply further cloud others in ignorance.

Have a good day.
This post was edited on 4/27/14 at 9:18 am
Posted by Antonio Moss
Baton Rouge
Member since Mar 2006
48328 posts
Posted on 4/27/14 at 9:11 am to
My biggest issue with the counterargument is that requires us to ignore everything that happened in the world prior to colonialism and view that era in a vacuum.

Its an argument based in ignorance. The Ancient Egyptians set up an entire system based on ethnicity with four distinct groups - Nubians, Egyptians, Asiatics, and Libyians - and chastised one another based on skin tone. The lighter skinned Egyptians declared the Libyans and Nubians to be the "evil
dark skinned people of Ish."
Posted by SlowFlowPro
Simple Solutions to Complex Probs
Member since Jan 2004
423027 posts
Posted on 4/27/14 at 9:14 am to
quote:

to this question, racial taxonomy and natural groups were incorporated in light of European colonization and played a major motivating factor.

and this is nothing special with regards to colonialism or europeans. this has occurred in basically any expansion of any group in the history of mankind. as a group, we try to expand our borders (and all the power and resources that come with it). we create an enemy. we create a narrative that we are superior and they are inferior and evil. we use this to justify our group killing them. the other group acts in kind, and in an attempt to rally its group, identifies my group as inferior and evil. the superior side wins and writes the histories.

wash. rinse. repeat.

sometimes race is used. more often, another variable is used.

quote:

Racial taxonomy did not exist in any legitimized sense of discriminating "value" prior to the enlightenment.

this is 100% wrong
Posted by Antonio Moss
Baton Rouge
Member since Mar 2006
48328 posts
Posted on 4/27/14 at 9:15 am to
quote:

Racial taxonomy did not exist in any legitimized sense of discriminating "value" prior to the enlightenment. your inability to stay on topic simply further cloud others in ignorance.


You're simply wrong in every sense of the word. Look what I just posted about the racial classifications of ancient Egypt. Racial taxonomy has been present since the beginning of time. It occurred on a smaller scale for the simple reason that ancient civilizations did not have the means for vast transportation but it was absolutely present.
Posted by SlowFlowPro
Simple Solutions to Complex Probs
Member since Jan 2004
423027 posts
Posted on 4/27/14 at 9:16 am to
i don't know why we try to do that. i think it has something to do with avoiding how terrible mankind used to be. we're just not comfortable viewing them in that way and we would rather make our contemporary selves feel guilty for much more minor transgressions
Posted by Bestbank Tiger
Premium Member
Member since Jan 2005
71287 posts
Posted on 4/27/14 at 9:20 am to
quote:


uh, yeah

the Greeks claim Africans were burnt by the sun. that is an easy example of racial taxonomy and hierarchy


True. On the other hand, our racial distinctions were meaningless to the Hebrews. Sub-Saharan Africa was known to them but skin color was irrelevant. There were practicing Jews in Ethiopia at the time of Jesus, and 600 years earlier a Cush-ite was an officer in Jehoiakim's court.
Posted by miamiman55
Miami
Member since Feb 2008
219 posts
Posted on 4/27/14 at 9:20 am to
"Race is a classification system used to categorize humans into large and distinct populations or groups by anatomical, cultural, ethnic, genetic, geographical, historical, linguistic, religious, and/or social affiliation. First used to refer to speakers of a common language and then to denote national affiliations, in the 17th century, people began to use the term to relate to observable physical traits. Such use promoted hierarchies favorable to differing ethnic groups. Starting from the 19th century, the term was often used, in a taxonomic sense, to denote genetically differentiated human populations defined by phenotype.[1][2][3]"
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