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Posted on 5/26/17 at 1:06 pm to skrayper
quote:
IMHO, there's three Islamic groups: 1.) The Majority - the ones who don't want violence, but either pretend it never happened or that it doesn't apply anymore. Not violent themselves but nor are they helping things. 2.) The Radical - the one who subscribes, as this cleric points out, to the belief that killing infidels is a gateway to their paradise. Hard to "teach" against something that has been at least partially preached (even if the clerics didn't command them to do it, if you're reading a holy book of your faith and it says in a lesser-known portion that Kermit the Frog is evil, then enough of them will find it and subscribe to the fact that Kermit is the devil) 3.) The Honest - the person who grew up with the religion, it is part of their core, but also understands where it came from and some of the horrible things it says. Tries to explain to people that there are just some members of this religion that will NEVER be okay with a "better relationship" and tries to get officials to do something. Tries to teach a, "Yes, we came from a violent past but we are not chained to it and we can be something better," viewpoint. A very tiny minority, sadly.
Here is why your theory on Muslims is wrong.
Pew Research did extensive poling on all religions of the world and their beliefs.
Here are some excerpts from what Muslims living in the United States said...
3.3 million Muslims of all ages in the U.S., or about 1% of the U.S. population
About suicide bombings
In the United States, the 2011 survey found that 86% of Muslims say such tactics are rarely or never justified. 7% say suicide bombings are sometimes justified and 1% say they are often justified.
Let that sink in.
You would have to believe given the terribleness of the question that the results are actually WAY under reported.
Again these were US Muslims. These are not the wackadoodles living in the Middle East.
This post was edited on 5/26/17 at 1:08 pm
Posted on 5/26/17 at 1:07 pm to skrayper
Anyone who knows anything about history knows what this guy says is true. It's not even debatable. Islam started in Saudi Arabia and spread across the Mid-East by conquest. Iran, for instance, was practicing old Indo-European religions in ancient times, and then by about 500 BCE, they started practicing Zoroastrianism. Iran today still has Zoroastrian minorities and was a pretty religiously tolerant country until 1979.
To be fair, though, the same happened to Europe with Christianity. Everyone was just chilling worshiping nature (Druids) or the old Indo-European pantheon of gods (like Zeus) until the Romans moved in and forcibly converted everyone (and then those people themselves converted others throughout the centuries). This means YOUR ancestors, baws, were pagans back in the day.
Religious people always want to force others to believe what they believe. It's all about power and suborning populations. Personally, I really don't give a shite what other people believe and this is why I am not religious.
To be fair, though, the same happened to Europe with Christianity. Everyone was just chilling worshiping nature (Druids) or the old Indo-European pantheon of gods (like Zeus) until the Romans moved in and forcibly converted everyone (and then those people themselves converted others throughout the centuries). This means YOUR ancestors, baws, were pagans back in the day.
Religious people always want to force others to believe what they believe. It's all about power and suborning populations. Personally, I really don't give a shite what other people believe and this is why I am not religious.
Posted on 5/26/17 at 1:07 pm to airfernando
quote:
Is it that hard to google what Bennie said? Grow a brain, already.
Ah, yes. Attack the person (even if they aren't disagreeing with you).
I don't care what Ben Afleck says about politics. I don't get my political or medical opinions from Hollywood.
You just had a weird mad on for a very specific person.
Posted on 5/26/17 at 1:08 pm to Loserman
quote:
About suicide bombings
In the United States, the 2011 survey found that 86% of Muslims say such tactics are rarely or never justified. 7% say suicide bombings are sometimes justified and 1% say they are often justified.
how do these stats prove his theory wrong?
Posted on 5/26/17 at 1:09 pm to Salmon
quote:
In the United States, the 2011 survey found that 86% of Muslims say such tactics are rarely or never justified.
Sort of odd to tie 'rarely' and 'never' together here.
Posted on 5/26/17 at 1:09 pm to skrayper
I've been saying it for a while. The "radicals" are the ones who are actually the Conservatives in Islam. The "moderates" are the liberals who are picking and choosing what they want to agree with in Islam.
Those who want to coexist with Islam have to reject the Islam that Muhammad created.
Those who want to coexist with Islam have to reject the Islam that Muhammad created.
Posted on 5/26/17 at 1:10 pm to skrayper
quote:
We have to own up that we (the United States) created a mess that we (the United States) needs to clean up in some way. I'm not interested in partisan blame - the simple fact of the matter is that we stuck our hands into other countries all the time. If there's an issue with one now, we need to assess if we are part of the cause and then fix it - not hope it resolves itself.
It cannot be fixed by government, especially not foreign governments. The people of the US shouldn't have to literally and figuratively
pay for the mistakes of people in the US government, past or present.
But that really wasn't my point. My point was the the west, including the US government, has as much blood on its hands as everyone else. So I'm sick of hearing about Muslim reformation being necessary when the west and Russia dropped about 100,000,000 bodies last century.
This post was edited on 5/26/17 at 1:11 pm
Posted on 5/26/17 at 1:12 pm to Y.A. Tittle
quote:
Sort of odd to tie 'rarely' and 'never' together here.
Wait, I misread what you said. My bad
This post was edited on 5/26/17 at 1:14 pm
Posted on 5/26/17 at 1:15 pm to MrCarton
quote:
Wait, I misread what you said. My bad
Okay.
I was trying to figure out how to respond, to what you'd said.
Posted on 5/26/17 at 1:16 pm to MrCarton
quote:
So I'm sick of hearing about Muslim reformation being necessary when the west and Russia dropped about 100,000,000 bodies last century.
I agree that the west has blood on their hands, but I thought the topic of the discussion was the motivation of radical Islamic terrorism and how secularization of Islam is needed to end the cycle of violence. That was atleast my interpetation of the thread
I fail to see how the body count from WW2 has anything to do with that
Posted on 5/26/17 at 1:16 pm to Y.A. Tittle
quote:
Okay.
I was trying to figure out how to respond, to what you'd said.
don't mind my retarded arse 
Posted on 5/26/17 at 1:16 pm to MrCarton
"Maybe we should be focusing on reforming ourselves and stay the frick out of the places where the extremists live."
I might even agree with you to a point, but the Manchester murderer was from England and the two sheikhs debating each other in the link by the OP were in Australia. The San Bernandino killers were from freakin' San Bernadino. We cannot simply stay out of the places where they live because we live there, too.
I might even agree with you to a point, but the Manchester murderer was from England and the two sheikhs debating each other in the link by the OP were in Australia. The San Bernandino killers were from freakin' San Bernadino. We cannot simply stay out of the places where they live because we live there, too.
Posted on 5/26/17 at 1:18 pm to WaWaWeeWa
quote:
3.) The Honest - the person who grew up with the religion, it is part of their core, but also understands where it came from and some of the horrible things it says. Tries to explain to people that there are just some members of this religion that will NEVER be okay with a "better relationship" and tries to get officials to do something. Tries to teach a, "Yes, we came from a violent past but we are not chained to it and we can be something better," viewpoint. A very tiny minority, sadly.
I was addressing that point, and that point only, which is why I quoted it, anx responded directly to him.
Posted on 5/26/17 at 1:18 pm to Salmon
quote:
how do these stats prove his theory wrong?
Hmmm I would guess that when asking about such an EXTREME VIEW as blowing ones self up to also kill the infidel, that 86% still included rarely in their answer.
Compared to blowing yourself up throwing gays off buildings is pretty minor.
Posted on 5/26/17 at 1:19 pm to skrayper
As a liberal I'll admit the following:
Violence is committed in the name of all religions. However, at this time and for some time the majority of religious terrorists are Muslim.
So being that all three major religions have texts that can justify violence and killing, what is the other factor involved with Muslims that bring them to this? It isn't just the religion or you would see more Christians and Jews doing this. Is it mental illness? Is it poverty? To blame it solely on the religion isn't accurate and short sighted.
Violence is committed in the name of all religions. However, at this time and for some time the majority of religious terrorists are Muslim.
So being that all three major religions have texts that can justify violence and killing, what is the other factor involved with Muslims that bring them to this? It isn't just the religion or you would see more Christians and Jews doing this. Is it mental illness? Is it poverty? To blame it solely on the religion isn't accurate and short sighted.
Posted on 5/26/17 at 1:21 pm to Loserman
quote:
that 86% still included rarely in their answer.
did 86% include "rarely" in the answer or was that how the question was framed?
and of that 86%, how many include "rarely"?
Posted on 5/26/17 at 1:21 pm to Salmon
quote:
did 86% include "rarely" in the answer or was that how the question was framed?
and of that 86%, how many include "rarely"?
Two questions I want answered.
Posted on 5/26/17 at 1:22 pm to MrCarton
Like dead born and Minneapolis?
Posted on 5/26/17 at 1:23 pm to TheHumanTornado
quote:Disagree on this. In Islam, there are direct commands to kill infidels and those who reject or mock Islam or Mohammad. There are no such direct commands for followers of Christianity. The depictions of violence in the Old Testament were specific to a nation in history, not to all believers for eternity.
So being that all three major religions have texts that can justify violence and killing,
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