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Recruiting Dual Threat QBs and why it's hard

Posted on 12/3/14 at 11:01 am
Posted by ShortyRob
Member since Oct 2008
82116 posts
Posted on 12/3/14 at 11:01 am
Some player types are harder to evaluate in HS than others. Dual threat QBs fall into this category. The reason is that often, in HS, a "dual threat" QB is really just the most athletic MFer on the field. He can often appear to even be a pretty decent passer because he's passing against defenses so helpless to stop him when he's running that his reads are simple and WRs are running in the clear.

Think about this. Deion Sanders was a HS QB. I saw him play in HS. Teams were helpless to stop him. shite, they probably prayed he'd just pass.

Meanwhile, a traditional QB still basically needs to make all the throws. He isn't athletic enough to just take off every time he doesn't have the perfect throwing option. This actually lends to his development as a passer too. I mean hell, do you know how hard it must've been for a HS coach to convince Cam Newton not to just take off every time the WR wasn't running 3 yards in the clear? I can hear the conversation now. "Cam, I know you just ripped off 30 yards, but that WR really was kinda open".

So, Dual Threat guys give evaluators three problems. 1)They rarely have to learn to make all the throws an so, evaluators don't tend to see them. 2)They tend to only throw when the pass is absolutely THERE giving the illusion that this will translate going up and 3)Their leg talent actually impedes their own development as a passer.
(think of it as being a 7'2" basketball player in HS........why practice your jump shot? You're going to dominate anyway!)

So, I would love it if we could get a REAL dual threat guy but I submit that a GREAT MANY so-called "dual threat" guys in HS aren't. Even when they have big passing numbers. I think the hit rate for evaluating a great passer is just a lot easier to achieve than evaluating these HS dual threat guys.
Posted by Salviati
Member since Apr 2006
5541 posts
Posted on 12/3/14 at 11:05 am to
That's why LSU brings all QBs to LSU for a personal view.
Posted by RogerTheShrubber
Juneau, AK
Member since Jan 2009
260630 posts
Posted on 12/3/14 at 11:19 am to
"Dual threat" HS QB's are a dime a dozen. Running is the easy part.

LSU's best QB's in the past 30 years or so, only one was a true DT.

Hodson
Herb Tyler (DT)
Davey
Mauck
JR
Flynn
Mett

Mauck and Flynn (JR to an extent) were more mobile QB's to an extent.
Posted by ShortyRob
Member since Oct 2008
82116 posts
Posted on 12/3/14 at 12:01 pm to
quote:

LSU's best QB's in the past 30 years or so, only one was a true DT.

Yeah. To this day, despite all the hoopla that the occasional Cam Newton gets, if I were a coach, I'm still gonna be looking for the pure pocket passer with good feet and pocket awareness.

I don't need him to run for 20 yards if his combination of pocket awareness and a bit of mobility allows my WR to get open 30 yards down the field.

Love me some Mett, but yeah, just a bit TOO statuesque for me. Even then, I'll take that over "can't pass a lick but can run". My preference in order would be.

1)Pure Passer who runs like Cam(basically, a unicorn)

2)Pure Passer who runs a bit and senses pressure well.

3)Pure passer who is nailed to the ground.

4)Marginal Passer who runs like Cam.
This post was edited on 12/3/14 at 12:02 pm
Posted by winston318
Oklahoma City,OK
Member since Sep 2009
3175 posts
Posted on 12/3/14 at 12:13 pm to
Give me a pocket passer with a quick release, that can read defenses. That type of passer will open up the run game. Now he doesn't have to have 4.4 speed but at least run a 4.8 to be able to pick up a first downs when needed.
Posted by TigerBait1127
Houston
Member since Jun 2005
47336 posts
Posted on 12/3/14 at 12:15 pm to
Brandon Harris has the ability to make every single throw on the field. He has a great to elite type of arm.

I agree that the #1 criteria should be passing ability, but you'd obviously rather the guy who can move over the guy who's a statue if their arm talent is similar.

You're separating dual threat and mobile into 2 distinct categories when they shouldn't be. Dual threat QBs can develop into great pocket passers who use their running ability to extend plays and look downfield.

See Russell Wilson, Drew Brees, Andrew Luck, etc.
This post was edited on 12/3/14 at 12:20 pm
Posted by dante
Kingwood, TX
Member since Mar 2006
10669 posts
Posted on 12/3/14 at 12:25 pm to
quote:

Some player types are harder to evaluate in HS than others. Dual threat QBs fall into this category. The reason is that often, in HS, a "dual threat" QB is really just the most athletic MFer on the field. He can often appear to even be a pretty decent passer because he's passing against defenses so helpless to stop him when he's running that his reads are simple and WRs are running in the clear.
Not only that, but most DT qb's work completely out of the shotgun and don't even know the proper footwork for 3 and 5 step drops. Not to mention being taught how to properly take a snap from center.
Posted by ShortyRob
Member since Oct 2008
82116 posts
Posted on 12/3/14 at 12:37 pm to
quote:

Brandon Harris has the ability to make every single throw on the field. He has a great to elite type of arm.
I'm not going to dispute this. I've no way of knowing one way or the other at the college level. I mean, yeah, he does appear to have a hell of an arm. But, of course, that's a different question than is he a good passer.

quote:


You're separating dual threat and mobile into 2 distinct categories when they shouldn't be
Meh. I'm less separating them than acknowledging that when you hear the term used, it tends to mean a certain skill set. IE, rather than impose my definition, I'm simply using the established one.

quote:

See Russell Wilson, Drew Brees, Andrew Luck, etc.
None of whom would be describes as "dual threat" by most people. They are just guys, not unlike Aaron Rogers, who are pass first but can run a bit.

But, I acknowledge that is a fine distinction.

Here's what I'd say I really want. I want a QB, can do the statue thing if he must. Who, if forced to stay in the pocket by a good front 7, doesn't suddenly become useless. WAY too many supposedly "dual threat" guys become ZERO threat the moment their running is stymied.
Posted by TIGRLEE
Northeast Louisiana
Member since Nov 2009
31493 posts
Posted on 12/3/14 at 12:38 pm to
Best players on most hs teams play qb.
They are better than 95% other players on field so their numbers aren't what they seem.

They get to college and they have to do two things they didnt have to do in high school.

1) prepare and not be an idiot.
2) compete against players that are just as good as them.


That's the problem with dual threat qbs.
Posted by TigerBait1127
Houston
Member since Jun 2005
47336 posts
Posted on 12/3/14 at 12:43 pm to
quote:

None of whom would be describes as "dual threat" by most people.


Russell Wilson ran a 4.55. He was labeled as a dual-threat QB in HS.

Drew had over 500 yards rushing his senior year (Jefferson's highest was 123, Herb Tyler's highest was 279)

quote:

They are just guys, not unlike Aaron Rogers, who are pass first but can run a bit.
But, I acknowledge that is a fine distinction.


Which is my point. You want to recruit that athleticism and develop the tendencies

quote:

I want a QB, can do the statue thing if he must. Who, if forced to stay in the pocket by a good front 7, doesn't suddenly become useless. WAY too many supposedly "dual threat" guys become ZERO threat the moment their running is stymied.


I completely agree. Arm talent should be the #1 criteria.
This post was edited on 12/3/14 at 12:48 pm
Posted by ShortyRob
Member since Oct 2008
82116 posts
Posted on 12/3/14 at 12:47 pm to
You actually see the problem a bit when trying to evaluate particularly big HS running backs. In HS, these dudes are bigger than most of the defensive lineman they'll face and substantially bigger than most of the rest of the defense.

Some of these guys get to college and suddenly, they can't just run through tackles anymore and they have nothing else.

On the flip side, sometimes that little guy with all the moves that's impossible to catch in high school gets to college and even the cornerbacks can arm tackle him and he becomes useless.

Evaluating total production for many of these guys can create a mirage. That's why NFL scouts don't really give a frick what you do when you play New Mexico State if you're at LSU. They want to see what you do against similar talent!!
Posted by ShortyRob
Member since Oct 2008
82116 posts
Posted on 12/3/14 at 12:54 pm to
quote:

I completely agree. Arm talent should be the #1 criteria.


It occurs to me that I framed this improperly a bit earlier in the thread.

Here's the bottom line. I think that when evaluating a QB, you should first pretend you absolutely don't give a shite if he can run. Evaluating as if you plan to use him like Tom Brady.

The running should be a COMPLETE ad on. Alas, I think many people evaluate these guys where the evaluation becomes a sliding scale.

IE, "if he's a 10 runner, he can be a 5 passer but if he's a 6 runner, he needs to be a 7 passer".

Um. NOOOOOOOO! Rate that mother fricker like you expect him to perpetually play with turf toe!!!
Posted by Datbayoubengal
Port City
Member since Sep 2009
26655 posts
Posted on 12/3/14 at 12:57 pm to
quote:

Not only that, but most DT qb's work completely out of the shotgun and don't even know the proper footwork for 3 and 5 step drops. Not to mention being taught how to properly take a snap from center


No, most high school QBs work completely from the shotgun. There was some work done, but guys like Brady, Flacco. Peyton Manning, Brees, etc work 70%+ from shotgun. Most college teams are spread.

My ideal QB is pass well and run well. My second best is pass well and have some mobility. I'd rather not have a statue because your QB is dead in the water whenever the OL is bad.
Posted by Datbayoubengal
Port City
Member since Sep 2009
26655 posts
Posted on 12/3/14 at 1:01 pm to
quote:

None of whom would be describes as "dual threat" by most people. They are just guys, not unlike Aaron Rogers, who are pass first but can run a bit.


All of them were dual threat in college. There is a freaking highlight play of Luck getting into the open field and running over somebody.

Luck in the NFL

255 yards 5 TDs
377 yards 4 TDs
215 yards 2 TDs

That's running the ball brotha. If you are averaging 4.1, 4.3, and 6.0 ypc as a QB, you damn sure are a dual threat. Same with Wilson.
Posted by ShortyRob
Member since Oct 2008
82116 posts
Posted on 12/3/14 at 1:06 pm to
quote:

All of them were dual threat in college. There is a freaking highlight play of Luck getting into the open field and running over somebody.

Luck in the NFL

255 yards 5 TDs
377 yards 4 TDs
215 yards 2 TDs

That's running the ball brotha. If you are averaging 4.1, 4.3, and 6.0 ypc as a QB, you damn sure are a dual threat. Same with Wilson.


Well, yes, I said they were good runners. Alas, nearly every kid coming out of high school labeled "dual threat" is labeled as such because of a MUCH greater tendency to run. For the record, Andrew Luck was listed as Pro-Style coming out of High School

Wilson was labeled dual threat.

Now, let's be honest here. If you found out Luck was gimped a bit for the next month, you'd still expect big passing numbers from him.

Wilson? Take that dude's feet from him and he's maybe the 30th best QB in the league.
Posted by TigerBait1127
Houston
Member since Jun 2005
47336 posts
Posted on 12/3/14 at 1:07 pm to
quote:

There was some work done, but guys like Brady, Flacco. Peyton Manning, Brees, etc work 70%+ from shotgun.


None of those guys take 70% of their snaps from the shotgun

Saints are under center 52% of the time (including punts).
Ravens are under center 77%

This post was edited on 12/3/14 at 1:14 pm
Posted by DonJuanDaMiles
San Diego, CA
Member since Feb 2014
624 posts
Posted on 12/3/14 at 1:24 pm to
Probably true when you saw Dion play, but nowadays these guys participate in so many camps, 7-on-7's, and other competitions such as Elite 11 that recruiters get opportunities to see them make many, if not all, the throws.

Not to mention, it's not like these kids are all running the triple option. Most of these guys are playing in modern spread offenses and throwing the ball 20+ times per game.

Your basketball analogy fell short as well, Rob.
Posted by higgins
flowery branch, ga
Member since Dec 2009
7918 posts
Posted on 12/3/14 at 1:25 pm to
so, all BS aside, what is the REAL reason harris didnt get a fair shot after auburn?
Posted by Datbayoubengal
Port City
Member since Sep 2009
26655 posts
Posted on 12/3/14 at 1:29 pm to
quote:

Now, let's be honest here. If you found out Luck was gimped a bit for the next month, you'd still expect big passing numbers from him.


Yeah because of the system he is in.

quote:

Wilson? Take that dude's feet from him and he's maybe the 30th best QB in the league.


LOL, That's a crock of shite. Also It's the way that offense is worked. Luck's offense is passing at its base, Seattle's is obviously running. Those two can't compare.

It's like comparing what KC runs to what NO or Denver runs. Luck is leading the league in pass attempts right now. He has passed over 150 more times than Wilson.


Also, WTF are you talking about? Wilson broke the QB efficiency record while he was in college. He also had 3 consecutive 3000 yard passing seasons. Threw for at least 28 TDs in 3 straight seasons as well.

If he was in a pass first system, he'd do fine. He also needs some decent WRs.
Posted by Datbayoubengal
Port City
Member since Sep 2009
26655 posts
Posted on 12/3/14 at 1:31 pm to
quote:

None of those guys take 70% of their snaps from the shotgun Saints are under center 52% of the time (including punts). Ravens are under center 77%


I'll post it from the article I was reading earlier this year once I find it. I couldn't remember the exact QBs, but one was definitely Flacco. Maybe it changed this year IDK, but it was documented.
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