- My Forums
- Tiger Rant
- LSU Recruiting
- SEC Rant
- Saints Talk
- Pelicans Talk
- More Sports Board
- Fantasy Sports
- Golf Board
- Soccer Board
- O-T Lounge
- Tech Board
- Home/Garden Board
- Outdoor Board
- Health/Fitness Board
- Movie/TV Board
- Book Board
- Music Board
- Political Talk
- Money Talk
- Fark Board
- Gaming Board
- Travel Board
- Food/Drink Board
- Ticket Exchange
- TD Help Board
Customize My Forums- View All Forums
- Show Left Links
- Topic Sort Options
- Trending Topics
- Recent Topics
- Active Topics
Started By
Message
Recruiting Dual Threat QBs and why it's hard
Posted on 12/3/14 at 11:01 am
Posted on 12/3/14 at 11:01 am
Some player types are harder to evaluate in HS than others. Dual threat QBs fall into this category. The reason is that often, in HS, a "dual threat" QB is really just the most athletic MFer on the field. He can often appear to even be a pretty decent passer because he's passing against defenses so helpless to stop him when he's running that his reads are simple and WRs are running in the clear.
Think about this. Deion Sanders was a HS QB. I saw him play in HS. Teams were helpless to stop him. shite, they probably prayed he'd just pass.
Meanwhile, a traditional QB still basically needs to make all the throws. He isn't athletic enough to just take off every time he doesn't have the perfect throwing option. This actually lends to his development as a passer too. I mean hell, do you know how hard it must've been for a HS coach to convince Cam Newton not to just take off every time the WR wasn't running 3 yards in the clear? I can hear the conversation now. "Cam, I know you just ripped off 30 yards, but that WR really was kinda open".
So, Dual Threat guys give evaluators three problems. 1)They rarely have to learn to make all the throws an so, evaluators don't tend to see them. 2)They tend to only throw when the pass is absolutely THERE giving the illusion that this will translate going up and 3)Their leg talent actually impedes their own development as a passer.
(think of it as being a 7'2" basketball player in HS........why practice your jump shot? You're going to dominate anyway!)
So, I would love it if we could get a REAL dual threat guy but I submit that a GREAT MANY so-called "dual threat" guys in HS aren't. Even when they have big passing numbers. I think the hit rate for evaluating a great passer is just a lot easier to achieve than evaluating these HS dual threat guys.
Think about this. Deion Sanders was a HS QB. I saw him play in HS. Teams were helpless to stop him. shite, they probably prayed he'd just pass.
Meanwhile, a traditional QB still basically needs to make all the throws. He isn't athletic enough to just take off every time he doesn't have the perfect throwing option. This actually lends to his development as a passer too. I mean hell, do you know how hard it must've been for a HS coach to convince Cam Newton not to just take off every time the WR wasn't running 3 yards in the clear? I can hear the conversation now. "Cam, I know you just ripped off 30 yards, but that WR really was kinda open".
So, Dual Threat guys give evaluators three problems. 1)They rarely have to learn to make all the throws an so, evaluators don't tend to see them. 2)They tend to only throw when the pass is absolutely THERE giving the illusion that this will translate going up and 3)Their leg talent actually impedes their own development as a passer.
(think of it as being a 7'2" basketball player in HS........why practice your jump shot? You're going to dominate anyway!)
So, I would love it if we could get a REAL dual threat guy but I submit that a GREAT MANY so-called "dual threat" guys in HS aren't. Even when they have big passing numbers. I think the hit rate for evaluating a great passer is just a lot easier to achieve than evaluating these HS dual threat guys.
Posted on 12/3/14 at 11:05 am to ShortyRob
That's why LSU brings all QBs to LSU for a personal view.
Posted on 12/3/14 at 11:19 am to ShortyRob
"Dual threat" HS QB's are a dime a dozen. Running is the easy part.
LSU's best QB's in the past 30 years or so, only one was a true DT.
Hodson
Herb Tyler (DT)
Davey
Mauck
JR
Flynn
Mett
Mauck and Flynn (JR to an extent) were more mobile QB's to an extent.
LSU's best QB's in the past 30 years or so, only one was a true DT.
Hodson
Herb Tyler (DT)
Davey
Mauck
JR
Flynn
Mett
Mauck and Flynn (JR to an extent) were more mobile QB's to an extent.
Posted on 12/3/14 at 12:01 pm to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
LSU's best QB's in the past 30 years or so, only one was a true DT.
Yeah. To this day, despite all the hoopla that the occasional Cam Newton gets, if I were a coach, I'm still gonna be looking for the pure pocket passer with good feet and pocket awareness.
I don't need him to run for 20 yards if his combination of pocket awareness and a bit of mobility allows my WR to get open 30 yards down the field.
Love me some Mett, but yeah, just a bit TOO statuesque for me. Even then, I'll take that over "can't pass a lick but can run". My preference in order would be.
1)Pure Passer who runs like Cam(basically, a unicorn)
2)Pure Passer who runs a bit and senses pressure well.
3)Pure passer who is nailed to the ground.
4)Marginal Passer who runs like Cam.
This post was edited on 12/3/14 at 12:02 pm
Posted on 12/3/14 at 12:13 pm to ShortyRob
Give me a pocket passer with a quick release, that can read defenses. That type of passer will open up the run game. Now he doesn't have to have 4.4 speed but at least run a 4.8 to be able to pick up a first downs when needed.
Posted on 12/3/14 at 12:15 pm to ShortyRob
Brandon Harris has the ability to make every single throw on the field. He has a great to elite type of arm.
I agree that the #1 criteria should be passing ability, but you'd obviously rather the guy who can move over the guy who's a statue if their arm talent is similar.
You're separating dual threat and mobile into 2 distinct categories when they shouldn't be. Dual threat QBs can develop into great pocket passers who use their running ability to extend plays and look downfield.
See Russell Wilson, Drew Brees, Andrew Luck, etc.
I agree that the #1 criteria should be passing ability, but you'd obviously rather the guy who can move over the guy who's a statue if their arm talent is similar.
You're separating dual threat and mobile into 2 distinct categories when they shouldn't be. Dual threat QBs can develop into great pocket passers who use their running ability to extend plays and look downfield.
See Russell Wilson, Drew Brees, Andrew Luck, etc.
This post was edited on 12/3/14 at 12:20 pm
Posted on 12/3/14 at 12:25 pm to ShortyRob
quote:Not only that, but most DT qb's work completely out of the shotgun and don't even know the proper footwork for 3 and 5 step drops. Not to mention being taught how to properly take a snap from center.
Some player types are harder to evaluate in HS than others. Dual threat QBs fall into this category. The reason is that often, in HS, a "dual threat" QB is really just the most athletic MFer on the field. He can often appear to even be a pretty decent passer because he's passing against defenses so helpless to stop him when he's running that his reads are simple and WRs are running in the clear.
Posted on 12/3/14 at 12:37 pm to TigerBait1127
quote:I'm not going to dispute this. I've no way of knowing one way or the other at the college level. I mean, yeah, he does appear to have a hell of an arm. But, of course, that's a different question than is he a good passer.
Brandon Harris has the ability to make every single throw on the field. He has a great to elite type of arm.
quote:Meh. I'm less separating them than acknowledging that when you hear the term used, it tends to mean a certain skill set. IE, rather than impose my definition, I'm simply using the established one.
You're separating dual threat and mobile into 2 distinct categories when they shouldn't be
quote:None of whom would be describes as "dual threat" by most people. They are just guys, not unlike Aaron Rogers, who are pass first but can run a bit.
See Russell Wilson, Drew Brees, Andrew Luck, etc.
But, I acknowledge that is a fine distinction.
Here's what I'd say I really want. I want a QB, can do the statue thing if he must. Who, if forced to stay in the pocket by a good front 7, doesn't suddenly become useless. WAY too many supposedly "dual threat" guys become ZERO threat the moment their running is stymied.
Posted on 12/3/14 at 12:38 pm to ShortyRob
Best players on most hs teams play qb.
They are better than 95% other players on field so their numbers aren't what they seem.
They get to college and they have to do two things they didnt have to do in high school.
1) prepare and not be an idiot.
2) compete against players that are just as good as them.
That's the problem with dual threat qbs.
They are better than 95% other players on field so their numbers aren't what they seem.
They get to college and they have to do two things they didnt have to do in high school.
1) prepare and not be an idiot.
2) compete against players that are just as good as them.
That's the problem with dual threat qbs.
Posted on 12/3/14 at 12:43 pm to ShortyRob
quote:
None of whom would be describes as "dual threat" by most people.
Russell Wilson ran a 4.55. He was labeled as a dual-threat QB in HS.
Drew had over 500 yards rushing his senior year (Jefferson's highest was 123, Herb Tyler's highest was 279)
quote:
They are just guys, not unlike Aaron Rogers, who are pass first but can run a bit.
But, I acknowledge that is a fine distinction.
Which is my point. You want to recruit that athleticism and develop the tendencies
quote:
I want a QB, can do the statue thing if he must. Who, if forced to stay in the pocket by a good front 7, doesn't suddenly become useless. WAY too many supposedly "dual threat" guys become ZERO threat the moment their running is stymied.
I completely agree. Arm talent should be the #1 criteria.
This post was edited on 12/3/14 at 12:48 pm
Posted on 12/3/14 at 12:47 pm to TIGRLEE
You actually see the problem a bit when trying to evaluate particularly big HS running backs. In HS, these dudes are bigger than most of the defensive lineman they'll face and substantially bigger than most of the rest of the defense.
Some of these guys get to college and suddenly, they can't just run through tackles anymore and they have nothing else.
On the flip side, sometimes that little guy with all the moves that's impossible to catch in high school gets to college and even the cornerbacks can arm tackle him and he becomes useless.
Evaluating total production for many of these guys can create a mirage. That's why NFL scouts don't really give a frick what you do when you play New Mexico State if you're at LSU. They want to see what you do against similar talent!!
Some of these guys get to college and suddenly, they can't just run through tackles anymore and they have nothing else.
On the flip side, sometimes that little guy with all the moves that's impossible to catch in high school gets to college and even the cornerbacks can arm tackle him and he becomes useless.
Evaluating total production for many of these guys can create a mirage. That's why NFL scouts don't really give a frick what you do when you play New Mexico State if you're at LSU. They want to see what you do against similar talent!!
Posted on 12/3/14 at 12:54 pm to TigerBait1127
quote:
I completely agree. Arm talent should be the #1 criteria.
It occurs to me that I framed this improperly a bit earlier in the thread.
Here's the bottom line. I think that when evaluating a QB, you should first pretend you absolutely don't give a shite if he can run. Evaluating as if you plan to use him like Tom Brady.
The running should be a COMPLETE ad on. Alas, I think many people evaluate these guys where the evaluation becomes a sliding scale.
IE, "if he's a 10 runner, he can be a 5 passer but if he's a 6 runner, he needs to be a 7 passer".
Um. NOOOOOOOO! Rate that mother fricker like you expect him to perpetually play with turf toe!!!
Posted on 12/3/14 at 12:57 pm to dante
quote:
Not only that, but most DT qb's work completely out of the shotgun and don't even know the proper footwork for 3 and 5 step drops. Not to mention being taught how to properly take a snap from center
No, most high school QBs work completely from the shotgun. There was some work done, but guys like Brady, Flacco. Peyton Manning, Brees, etc work 70%+ from shotgun. Most college teams are spread.
My ideal QB is pass well and run well. My second best is pass well and have some mobility. I'd rather not have a statue because your QB is dead in the water whenever the OL is bad.
Posted on 12/3/14 at 1:01 pm to ShortyRob
quote:
None of whom would be describes as "dual threat" by most people. They are just guys, not unlike Aaron Rogers, who are pass first but can run a bit.
All of them were dual threat in college. There is a freaking highlight play of Luck getting into the open field and running over somebody.
Luck in the NFL
255 yards 5 TDs
377 yards 4 TDs
215 yards 2 TDs
That's running the ball brotha. If you are averaging 4.1, 4.3, and 6.0 ypc as a QB, you damn sure are a dual threat. Same with Wilson.
Posted on 12/3/14 at 1:06 pm to Datbayoubengal
quote:
All of them were dual threat in college. There is a freaking highlight play of Luck getting into the open field and running over somebody.
Luck in the NFL
255 yards 5 TDs
377 yards 4 TDs
215 yards 2 TDs
That's running the ball brotha. If you are averaging 4.1, 4.3, and 6.0 ypc as a QB, you damn sure are a dual threat. Same with Wilson.
Well, yes, I said they were good runners. Alas, nearly every kid coming out of high school labeled "dual threat" is labeled as such because of a MUCH greater tendency to run. For the record, Andrew Luck was listed as Pro-Style coming out of High School
Wilson was labeled dual threat.
Now, let's be honest here. If you found out Luck was gimped a bit for the next month, you'd still expect big passing numbers from him.
Wilson? Take that dude's feet from him and he's maybe the 30th best QB in the league.
Posted on 12/3/14 at 1:07 pm to Datbayoubengal
quote:
There was some work done, but guys like Brady, Flacco. Peyton Manning, Brees, etc work 70%+ from shotgun.
None of those guys take 70% of their snaps from the shotgun
Saints are under center 52% of the time (including punts).
Ravens are under center 77%
This post was edited on 12/3/14 at 1:14 pm
Posted on 12/3/14 at 1:24 pm to ShortyRob
Probably true when you saw Dion play, but nowadays these guys participate in so many camps, 7-on-7's, and other competitions such as Elite 11 that recruiters get opportunities to see them make many, if not all, the throws.
Not to mention, it's not like these kids are all running the triple option. Most of these guys are playing in modern spread offenses and throwing the ball 20+ times per game.
Your basketball analogy fell short as well, Rob.
Not to mention, it's not like these kids are all running the triple option. Most of these guys are playing in modern spread offenses and throwing the ball 20+ times per game.
Your basketball analogy fell short as well, Rob.
Posted on 12/3/14 at 1:25 pm to TigerBait1127
so, all BS aside, what is the REAL reason harris didnt get a fair shot after auburn?
Posted on 12/3/14 at 1:29 pm to ShortyRob
quote:
Now, let's be honest here. If you found out Luck was gimped a bit for the next month, you'd still expect big passing numbers from him.
Yeah because of the system he is in.
quote:
Wilson? Take that dude's feet from him and he's maybe the 30th best QB in the league.
LOL, That's a crock of shite. Also It's the way that offense is worked. Luck's offense is passing at its base, Seattle's is obviously running. Those two can't compare.
It's like comparing what KC runs to what NO or Denver runs. Luck is leading the league in pass attempts right now. He has passed over 150 more times than Wilson.
Also, WTF are you talking about? Wilson broke the QB efficiency record while he was in college. He also had 3 consecutive 3000 yard passing seasons. Threw for at least 28 TDs in 3 straight seasons as well.
If he was in a pass first system, he'd do fine. He also needs some decent WRs.
Posted on 12/3/14 at 1:31 pm to TigerBait1127
quote:
None of those guys take 70% of their snaps from the shotgun Saints are under center 52% of the time (including punts). Ravens are under center 77%
I'll post it from the article I was reading earlier this year once I find it. I couldn't remember the exact QBs, but one was definitely Flacco. Maybe it changed this year IDK, but it was documented.
Popular
Back to top
Follow TigerDroppings for LSU Football News