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EPA regs to kill nuclear power

Posted on 12/1/14 at 2:42 pm
Posted by Iosh
Bureau of Interstellar Immigration
Member since Dec 2012
18941 posts
Posted on 12/1/14 at 2:42 pm
TL;DR: A subtle double standard built into the new EPA regs means that states with large established bases of nuclear power can meet their emissions targets by tearing down existing nuclear plants and replacing them with natural gas plants, even though this won't actually reduce emissions, because of how stupid the calculation formula is.

LINK
quote:

Remy and Justin entered a hypothetical scenario into the model in which each state with nuclear generating stations shut down all of their nuclear plants and replaced their zero emission electricity generation with natural gas fired generation. Remy and Justin uncovered a starting fact. In 15 states the carbon intensity in pounds per MWhr as calculated by the EPA’s spreadsheet model decreased.

That result made no sense to them. They thought that someone had to have made a mistake somewhere in the formulas used in the model that had not been caught by any of the reviews that must have taken place inside the EPA before the rule was issued for comment.

They dug into the spreadsheet and realized that the formula for calculating each state’s initial emission intensity gave every power source except nuclear credit for 100% of its actual generation in 2012, which was the year used for calculating the starting point from which each state’s carbon intensity reduction plan will be required a certain percentage reduction by 2030. For nuclear electricity production, the EPA’s “consistent national formula” applied a factor of .058 to its 2012 generation and then that far smaller number was added to the rest of the state’s 2012 power output to compute the overall carbon intensity.

That means that states with a substantial portion of power being produced by zero emission nuclear energy today have what appears to be a much higher carbon intensity than they actually have. If they close one of their operating nuclear plants, their EPA calculated carbon intensity number increases by a very small number because only 5.8% of the plant’s zero emission output was in that number in the first place. If the state chooses to replace the output of the nuclear plant with natural gas, there is a possibility — dependent on the state’s mix of other plants — that the carbon intensity number will actually decrease from what it was with the nuclear plant running.

Remy and Justin then met with the people who devised the formula and showed them what they had found. Those EPA staff members did not admit an error; they simply explained their methodology and assumptions in creating the model. They encouraged the pair to provide a comment to the proposed rule and said it would be considered during the process of finalizing the rule.

As young graduate students studying hard to become professionals in a field where integrity is highly valued and reinforced, Remy and Justin have graciously projected their personal honesty onto the EPA decision makers and believe that the formula was the result of an inadvertent misunderstanding that has “unintended” consequences.

I’m a little more experienced in the ways of Washington staffs and quite a bit more skeptical about the actions taken under the cover of pleasant sounding phrases. There is only a small chance that the formula’s results are unintentional. I suspect that it was created with the conscious goal of minimizing the CO2 benefits of nuclear energy.

During my 33-year career as a US naval officer, I learned to trust, but verify, and to stop trusting the work of anyone who would not admit an error, especially when confronted with proof.
Public comments on the EPA rule close today. Here's one left by another nuclear blogger.
Posted by Taxing Authority
Houston
Member since Feb 2010
57278 posts
Posted on 12/1/14 at 2:44 pm to
:facepalm:

Good grief.

Thanks for posting that Iosh.
This post was edited on 12/1/14 at 2:46 pm
Posted by WeeWee
Member since Aug 2012
40139 posts
Posted on 12/1/14 at 2:48 pm to
quote:

Iosh


I thought you were one of the ones wanting the EPA to control emissions. I guess you didn't realize they (EPA) are retarded.



I actually I take that back calling the EPA retarded would be an insult to special needs ppl.
Posted by udtiger
Over your left shoulder
Member since Nov 2006
98863 posts
Posted on 12/1/14 at 2:48 pm to
I'd SMGDH, but nothing (and I mean NOTHING) about this team of jackasses surprises me anymore.
Posted by lsufan1971
Zachary
Member since Nov 2003
18283 posts
Posted on 12/1/14 at 2:51 pm to
I wish someone would turn the power off to the east coast in the name of saving the planet to see how the hacks feel like living in the dark for a while.
Posted by Taxing Authority
Houston
Member since Feb 2010
57278 posts
Posted on 12/1/14 at 2:56 pm to
quote:

I thought you were one of the ones wanting the EPA to control emissions. I guess you didn't realize they (EPA) are retarded.
the mistake is believing the EPA exists to provide a clean environment. In reality, much (though certainly not all) is devoted to delivering a comeuppance to corporations and businesses, and providing a means to shakedown political foes. Makes the organization difficult to support, even if you are a proponent of a cleaner environment.

Now that the monarch can decide which laws can be suspended, and which ones enforced--this will get even worse over time.

Sadly, both business AND the environment will suffer as a result. Nobody wins, except those seeking reelection.
Posted by Iosh
Bureau of Interstellar Immigration
Member since Dec 2012
18941 posts
Posted on 12/1/14 at 2:59 pm to
quote:

I thought you were one of the ones wanting the EPA to control emissions. I guess you didn't realize they (EPA) are retarded.
No, I've never thought direct action is a great way of controlling emissions. Pigovian taxes are better because they don't pick winners, they just say "okay, carbon is now expensive, may the best green tech win."

Direct action gets you Solyndra and regulatory capture. As seen here, where nuclear is now going to have to fight the favored techs of the right and the left with 94.2% of its arms tied behind its back.
This post was edited on 12/1/14 at 3:00 pm
Posted by Taxing Authority
Houston
Member since Feb 2010
57278 posts
Posted on 12/1/14 at 3:22 pm to
quote:

Pigovian taxes are better because they don't pick winners
I think your link demonstrates the opposite.

Barring direct measurement and tracking the end use of all CO2 sources (which isn't physically nor fiscally possible), bureaucracies will come up with empirical models to "estimate" the production and use tax bases.

Clearly, the bureaucracy did pick a winner/loser in the case you cited by manipulating the production "model". I have little confidence next time they will get it right.
This post was edited on 12/1/14 at 3:23 pm
Posted by bamarep
Member since Nov 2013
51807 posts
Posted on 12/1/14 at 3:24 pm to
Soros and Buffet must not be vested in nuke power.
Posted by SpidermanTUba
my house
Member since May 2004
36128 posts
Posted on 12/1/14 at 3:26 pm to
I'm having trouble figuring out how this is possible.

The emission intensity of nuclear is ~3.4% that of natural gas, so even if a state is 100% nuclear, it would still increase its emission intensity by switching to natural gas - by a factor of 29 fold in the real world - by a factor of 1.71 using the EPA's brain dead method of calculation. Its not close to reality but it is still above 1.

Perhaps the values I am using for natural gas and nuclear carbon emission intensity are wrong?

LINK
Posted by WeeWee
Member since Aug 2012
40139 posts
Posted on 12/1/14 at 3:27 pm to
quote:

No, I've never thought direct action is a great way of controlling emissions. Pigovian taxes are better because they don't pick winners, they just say "okay, carbon is now expensive, may the best green tech win."


Actually taxes (or fees for CO2 emissions) does pick winners and losers. Big corporations (i.e. oil and gas companies) can absorb the costs of taxes much easier than a start up company that might have the key to unlocking the "green fuels" door, but has to go out of business.
Posted by redfieldk717
Alec Box
Member since Oct 2011
28117 posts
Posted on 12/1/14 at 3:29 pm to
quote:

the mistake is believing the EPA exists to provide a clean environment. In reality, much (though certainly not all) is devoted to delivering a comeuppance to corporations and businesses, and providing a means to shakedown political foes. Makes the organization difficult to support, even if you are a proponent of a cleaner environment.


i deal with them a lot...all they want is money. they don't give a shite about the emissions. they are making hand over fist from the diesel generator business right now.

as a result, we pass these costs along to the customer. customer's have no choice but to buy these generators because the fed's tell them that it is required by law to have a back up system
This post was edited on 12/1/14 at 3:31 pm
Posted by SpidermanTUba
my house
Member since May 2004
36128 posts
Posted on 12/1/14 at 3:31 pm to
quote:

Pigovian taxes are better because they don't pick winners, they just say "okay, carbon is now expensive, may the best green tech win."



How does the government determine what the tax should be?

quote:


Direct action gets you Solyndra and regulatory capture. As seen here, where nuclear is now going to have to fight the favored techs of the right and the left with 94.2% of its arms tied behind its back.


The government's green energy loan program has actually posted a profit for taxpayers. Solyndra was a loser but enough of the loans did well enough we made money. Highlighting Solyndra is selection bias at its best. If you took Warren Buffet's worst investment and ignored everything else he's done he'd look like a moron, too. On the other hand take joe schmo who invests based on what he hear's from Jim Cramer, and his best investment might make him look like a genius.

This post was edited on 12/1/14 at 3:33 pm
Posted by Taxing Authority
Houston
Member since Feb 2010
57278 posts
Posted on 12/1/14 at 3:40 pm to
quote:

i deal with them a lot...all they want is money. they don't give a shite about the emissions.
Government often cloaks itself in "good works" to grab power. If they came out and said "we're going to start a department to harass business and collect fundraising for re-election" no reasonable person would support it.

But... When they say they are starting a department to "keep the environment clean"... who could be against that? It's easy to pummel any opposition with the "you just want a dirty environment to kill children with". It's bait.

It's why I'm so skeptical of "Net Neutrality". And I wish more had been more skeptical of the formation of Homeland security. Just think if he Bush administration came out and said "this will be an organization to listen to your phone calls and read your email" almost no one would have supported it.

The desire to "do something"... Is often more damaging that the supposed crisis.
Posted by WeeWee
Member since Aug 2012
40139 posts
Posted on 12/1/14 at 3:42 pm to
quote:

The government's green energy loan program has actually posted a profit for taxpayers. Solyndra was a loser but enough of the loans did well enough we made money. Highlighting Solyndra is selection bias at its best. If you took Warren Buffet's worst investment and ignored everything else he's done he'd look like a moron, too. On the other hand take joe schmo who invests based on what he hear's from Jim Cramer, and his best investment might make him look like a genius.


quote:

SpidermanTUba


please provide a link (that is not some left wing hack website) to back up your claims
Posted by MrLarson
Member since Oct 2014
34984 posts
Posted on 12/1/14 at 3:43 pm to
Good thing we have plenty of coal to burn.
Posted by redfieldk717
Alec Box
Member since Oct 2011
28117 posts
Posted on 12/1/14 at 3:48 pm to
they let us run Tier 3 diesel engines as long as we pay them a fee for each engine used. The tier 4 (emission compliant) engines are double the price and are not affordable for most people outside of the oil and gas industry.

also, because of this, natural gas engine pricing has sky rocketed because they are no "tier" ratings. they have sky rocketed because of emission regulations on diesel. all a NG engine is, is a GM engine block with a few extra regulators.

it is my opinion that the EPA does this to hurt the oil and gas industry because they buy more generators per year, by far, than any other industry.

Posted by Iosh
Bureau of Interstellar Immigration
Member since Dec 2012
18941 posts
Posted on 12/1/14 at 3:49 pm to
quote:

I think your link demonstrates the opposite.
The link isn't a carbon tax, it's direct action.
quote:

Barring direct measurement and tracking the end use of all CO2 sources (which isn't physically nor fiscally possible)
Why does a carbon tax need to track end use? Every proposal I've seen assesses it upstream on a BTU basis.

Just about the only end use case that's relevant there is CCS credits.
Posted by Iosh
Bureau of Interstellar Immigration
Member since Dec 2012
18941 posts
Posted on 12/1/14 at 3:55 pm to
quote:

The emission intensity of nuclear is ~3.4% that of natural gas, so even if a state is 100% nuclear, it would still increase its emission intensity by switching to natural gas - by a factor of 29 fold in the real world - by a factor of 1.71 using the EPA's brain dead method of calculation. Its not close to reality but it is still above 1.
The issue is states with a mix of nuclear and coal. The nuclear scaling affects the denominator as well as the numerator. Essentially most of that nuclear electricity generation is invisible. If they replace it all with natgas the paper ratio improves.

Let's say a state has 50% nuclear and 50% coal.

In terms of overall intensity the coal is weighted at 97%. The nuclear capacity is very low-emissions but isn't given much weight. Replace the nuclear with natgas and now the non-coal mix gets full-weighted, so even though natgas has a much higher emissions intensity relative to nuclear (I think it's around half of coal) the paper number goes down.
This post was edited on 12/1/14 at 4:10 pm
Posted by WeeWee
Member since Aug 2012
40139 posts
Posted on 12/1/14 at 4:00 pm to
quote:

How does the government determine what the tax should be?


That is the problem with a cap and trade (aka cap and tax) system. The EU tried it and a recession hit and it was not politically feasible to raise the price of carbon credits as a result industry never slowed up and only had an 8% reduction in CO2 (and know are talking about scrapping it and adopting more of a US model) whereas the USA had a 12% reduction without it thanks to lower NG prices (both were hit by the recession) and other things (i.e hybrid tax credits, higher ethanol content, etc) that made cleaner energy cheaper. Australia in 2012 passed a tough cap and trade but it made energy prices sky rocket and the ppl screamed no mas after a year and it was repealed. So a workable cap and trade system has not been devised by anyone and I don't want the US being the guinea pig.
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