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Started By
Message
"Job Training"
Posted on 10/27/14 at 10:01 am
Posted on 10/27/14 at 10:01 am
We hear a lot about the need for job training programs for those coming out of high school and college.
If people are coming out of the education system still need extra job training funded by the state, the what the hell is the education system for? I understand training for those who didn't finish school, but you have to simply sustain a heartbeat to get through high school. This shouldn't be a factor. Are we just pushing for more bureaucrat/teacher jobs to clean up the mess made by the education system?
Do we need a secondary/tertiary education system to fix the problems of the primary education system, proposed by and most likely run by the very people who frick up the primary system?
If people are coming out of the education system still need extra job training funded by the state, the what the hell is the education system for? I understand training for those who didn't finish school, but you have to simply sustain a heartbeat to get through high school. This shouldn't be a factor. Are we just pushing for more bureaucrat/teacher jobs to clean up the mess made by the education system?
Do we need a secondary/tertiary education system to fix the problems of the primary education system, proposed by and most likely run by the very people who frick up the primary system?
6
Posted on 10/27/14 at 10:04 am to SoulGlo
quote:
If people are coming out of the education system still need extra job training funded by the state, the what the hell is the education system for?
If they come out of 1st grade and still need job training, what the hell is 1st grade for?
quote:
Do we need a secondary/tertiary education system to fix the problems of the primary education system, proposed by and most likely run by the very people who frick up the primary system?
We already have a secondary education system. They are usually called "high schools" Maybe you've heard of them.
This post was edited on 10/27/14 at 10:04 am
Posted on 10/27/14 at 10:08 am to SoulGlo
quote:
If people are coming out of the education system still need extra job training funded by the state, the what the hell is the education system for?
To provide a broad-base of education. Honestly, what we do in HS now is 100% college prep, ignoring the fact that 75% of students are wholly unsuited for college or the work required to prepare them for it.
I would cut it off at about the 8th grade - give them the tradtional 3 Rs up until then. By the 8th grade, you kind of know who your college material are. Put the college bound kids in the traditional HS setting and take the "others" and put them in a split program. First 2 years roughly half life skills, i.e. health, civics, checkbook math, maybe a sampling of history and liberal arts, but maybe not, then the other half is exploratory where they try out various trades and crafts. Last 2 years, they focus on skills leading towards some sort of certification, CNA, electrician, plumber, mechanic, metal working, carpentry, etc., i.e. something in which they can make a living. They could also opt for basic office skills that lead to some sort of certificate.
And have the college-bound HS diploma actually mean something. The other kids will have some sort of equivalence diploma, but a true HS diploma would be like a "junior" college degree.
Where am I going wrong?
Posted on 10/27/14 at 10:13 am to SoulGlo
I sometimes wonder if the time tested practice of apprenticeship isn't the best way to go in some cases.
Posted on 10/27/14 at 10:24 am to Holden Caulfield
quote:
I sometimes wonder if the time tested practice of apprenticeship isn't the best way to go in some cases
Mike Rowe is a big proponent of that.
Work at McDonalds at minimum wage or go learn a trade?
Hmm... Tough choice.
Posted on 10/27/14 at 11:28 am to SoulGlo
I know a lot of juniors and seniors in high school who aren't too bright, so I don't think giving them less education is such a good idea.
You need 24 credits to graduate public school in LA. I would make everyone do 4 years of math, 4 years of English, 3 years of science, 3 years of history, and 2 years of health/PE. If you don't want to go to college offer career training / apprentice type things for the other 8 credits. If you want to go to college, then take an extra year of science and history, a couple of years of foreign language, and then whatever other electives.
You need 24 credits to graduate public school in LA. I would make everyone do 4 years of math, 4 years of English, 3 years of science, 3 years of history, and 2 years of health/PE. If you don't want to go to college offer career training / apprentice type things for the other 8 credits. If you want to go to college, then take an extra year of science and history, a couple of years of foreign language, and then whatever other electives.
Posted on 10/27/14 at 11:48 am to SoulGlo
It's just welfare for industry.
There's no shortage of labor. They're just not paying enough or they should provide their own training.
There's no shortage of labor. They're just not paying enough or they should provide their own training.
Posted on 10/27/14 at 11:58 am to SoulGlo
Americans are by nature convinced that their children have no limits. In truth, they have tons of limits. If you are 5-2 in 10th grade and female you will not ever play in the NBA. If your IQ is 77 in 2nd grade you will never get into Medical School.
I am a firm believer in tracking starting at Middle School. Let's say we make 8th grade the cut off.
In 8th grade little Johnny has an IQ of 89. He has a GPA of 1.2. He has been suspended for disciplinary reasons 4 times. Little Johnny has ZERO chance of going to college. So, why put him in a HS environment with subjects that are college prep designed? It makes no sense.
In what would be his 9th grade year he should be tracked into vocational skills. If you start that early he could be exposed to 5 or 6 different vocational skill areas by the time he is 16. He picks out his favorite and by 18 he is making more money than most of us as a plumber, electrician, construction framer, welder, AC/Heater Tech, etc.
If he gets really good at it and applies himself he can own his own small business by age 30.
I am a firm believer in tracking starting at Middle School. Let's say we make 8th grade the cut off.
In 8th grade little Johnny has an IQ of 89. He has a GPA of 1.2. He has been suspended for disciplinary reasons 4 times. Little Johnny has ZERO chance of going to college. So, why put him in a HS environment with subjects that are college prep designed? It makes no sense.
In what would be his 9th grade year he should be tracked into vocational skills. If you start that early he could be exposed to 5 or 6 different vocational skill areas by the time he is 16. He picks out his favorite and by 18 he is making more money than most of us as a plumber, electrician, construction framer, welder, AC/Heater Tech, etc.
If he gets really good at it and applies himself he can own his own small business by age 30.
Posted on 10/27/14 at 12:24 pm to Zach
quote:
If he gets really good at it and applies himself he can own his own small business by age 30.
Under your plan (and some of the others), will Johnny be able to obtain skills needed to run his own business (such as bookkeeping)?
I agree that we've pushed college too hard onto people who simply aren't meant for it, while neglecting trades (at day's end, we all want our cars and our HVAC systems to run).
Posted on 10/27/14 at 12:28 pm to gatorrocks
quote:
Mike Rowe is a big proponent of that.
Work at McDonalds at minimum wage or go learn a trade?
Hmm... Tough choice.
I think you should pick McDonald's.
Posted on 10/27/14 at 12:30 pm to SpidermanTUba
quote:
I think you should pick McDonald's.
"You didn't make that burger!"
Posted on 10/27/14 at 12:36 pm to Quidam65
quote:
Under your plan (and some of the others), will Johnny be able to obtain skills needed to run his own business (such as bookkeeping)?
By 8th grade you should have the 4 functions down. Beyond that you can hire your uncle who graduated from HS. He'll do it for free beer.
Posted on 10/27/14 at 12:38 pm to Quidam65
quote:
(at day's end, we all want our cars and our HVAC systems to run).
And while we still manufacture many things in the U.S. - construction trades and others like auto maintenance cannot be outsourced. Ditto for first line medical specialities that require no more than trade school - getting kids 2 years head start might make a very brief course all that's necessary to work as a pharmacy tech, X-Ray/MRI tech, etc. - jobs much better than normal unskilled work available to teenagers after high school. Better than wasting time and money on a traditional 4-year college if you have neither the time or money to expend on it.
Fully 1/2 of the 4-year degrees are vocationally worthless. I consider myself an educated man and classical education for its own sake has a certain amount of intrinsic value to society. However, I'm not certain of the wisdom of publicly subsidizing people who will have to work low wage jobs to pay back subsidized loans on a education that will not pay for itself in ROI.
Just my $0.02.
Posted on 10/27/14 at 12:38 pm to Zach
quote:
He picks out his favorite and by 18 he is making more money than most of us as a plumber, electrician, construction framer, welder, AC/Heater Tech, etc.
You are going to find very few successful people in these trades with a IQ of 89, and even fewer that run their own business.
Posted on 10/27/14 at 12:43 pm to EA6B
quote:
You are going to find very few successful people in these trades with a IQ of 89
I get your point, but the need for early transition to vocational training is even more important for this population.
One of my cousins (well, his brother married one of my cousins, but that's close enough around here) - was a savant with automatic transmissions - I guarantee you his IQ wasn't 95 - probably in the mid-80s, at most - but you could put him in a dark room with an AT, a rebuild kit and just tell him what kind it was, and he would be able to get it done by feel - good thing because his vision was failing him by his mid-30s. He died young, but he was highly sought after for his automatic transmission skills.
Of course, it didn't hurt that his father and brother were great mechanics and he was working on cars about the time he started walking.
This post was edited on 10/27/14 at 12:44 pm
Posted on 10/27/14 at 12:50 pm to Ace Midnight
quote:
To provide a broad-base of education. Honestly, what we do in HS now is 100% college prep, ignoring the fact that 75% of students are wholly unsuited for college or the work required to prepare them for it.
I would cut it off at about the 8th grade - give them the tradtional 3 Rs up until then. By the 8th grade, you kind of know who your college material are. Put the college bound kids in the traditional HS setting and take the "others" and put them in a split program. First 2 years roughly half life skills, i.e. health, civics, checkbook math, maybe a sampling of history and liberal arts, but maybe not, then the other half is exploratory where they try out various trades and crafts. Last 2 years, they focus on skills leading towards some sort of certification, CNA, electrician, plumber, mechanic, metal working, carpentry, etc., i.e. something in which they can make a living. They could also opt for basic office skills that lead to some sort of certificate.
And have the college-bound HS diploma actually mean something. The other kids will have some sort of equivalence diploma, but a true HS diploma would be like a "junior" college degree.
Where am I going wrong?
I think its a pretty good system. The only thing is not everyone is ready to get categorized that way when they are 14 or so. i know I was a late bloomer school wise. I was a straight C student until 10th grade, and then I became a straight A student through HS, college and grad school.
Maybe a core curriculum through 10th grade, one year of life skills and then one year of industry skills with a pipeline to a technical college where they can round out the rest of their skills.
Posted on 10/27/14 at 12:55 pm to Hawkeye95
quote:
I was a straight C student until 10th grade, and then I became a straight A student through HS, college and grad school.
I'd let the late bloomers opt in with recommendations from teachers and standardized tests. While that puts a little bit of a burden on them, it wouldn't preclude their crossing over. It also rewards the good kids for doing the right things the whole time.
Posted on 10/27/14 at 12:56 pm to Asgard Device
quote:
It's just welfare for industry.
There's no shortage of labor. They're just not paying enough or they should provide their own training.
I think there is a failure in our educational system. I work for a fortune 500, and we are hiring 2000 new college hires a year out of top 25 schools. We pay $80k+ to these graduates, and I am blown away on what they don't know how to do.
They are usually really good at presenting and working on teams, but being able to do basic office things like book travel, fill out expense reports, behave properly in meetings, use complete sentences/grammar in emails - they just can't do it.
Posted on 10/27/14 at 1:00 pm to Ace Midnight
quote:
I'd let the late bloomers opt in with recommendations from teachers and standardized tests. While that puts a little bit of a burden on them, it wouldn't preclude their crossing over. It also rewards the good kids for doing the right things the whole time.
maybe base it 100% on standardized testing?
That shite is scary accurate. I did really well on all of them, it was just I never did any homework.
Posted on 10/27/14 at 1:02 pm to Ace Midnight
quote:
I get your point, but the need for early transition to vocational training is even more important for this population.
I agree everyone has a interest or skill that can be developed, and college should not be the only route available, but I have a problem with some that just assume if a person is not on a college track it is due to lack of intelligence. Most of the trades mentioned in the other post require licensing, or certification at some point to really have a shot at the best jobs, the exams required for plumbing, electrician, HVAC, automotive tech, and general contracting require a working knowledge of math at probably the HS algebra/trig I level, understanding of basic concepts in science and the ability to memorize a fairly large amount of information, little Johnny with the 89 IQ is going to have a tough time.
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