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Message
Offensive Strategy
Posted on 10/5/14 at 1:16 pm
Posted on 10/5/14 at 1:16 pm
I posted this last night, but I'd like to repost it now that the place has calmed down a little bit and see if somebody can give me answers because I have no idea why we are doing what we do.
Can somebody tell me what LSU's current offensive strategy is? I have seen about 5 different formations used and only a couple plays run out of each formation.
We have the Jumbo I Form with 2 TEs, 1 WR, QB, FB, and RB which is almost always some variation of a dive, toss dive, and occasionally a stretch to the outside.
Then we have our base I Form with a TE, 2 WRs, QB, FB, RB. We will run inside handoffs and the infamous toss dive out of it, and will occasionally run play action out of it. Yet when we do run the PA, we either throw a deep bomb or a screen pass it seems. The comebacks, slants, outs, and digs that worked so well with Mett-OBJ/Landry have basically disappeared.
Then we have our base shotgun form with a 3 WRs, a TE, and the QB and RB. We like to run an inside zone read out of this which is almost always a hand off to the back. When our QBs do actually make a read, it is often the wrong read as they do not seem to grasp the concept. Plus, we do not block for these plays properly. We block straight forward, as if we are doing our I Form dives. When doing these reads, the whole offense rotates around the line moving and pushing the defense one way or the other and creating diagonal cut back lanes for the back to hit. When the line pushes straight forward, the back doesn't have any options for which hole to hit. It is just a predetermined hole and either it is there or it isn't. It normally leans toward the "isn't" option. Then we run some play action off of that, but once again, not enough short to intermediate routes to get the passing game going. Bombs and screens. And when we do screens, it is always poorly set up screens to the running back which is actually a tough touch pass with a 300 pound D Lineman in your face. Why do we never incorporate any bubble screens or read/pass options which are easy, straight throws to our play makers.
What a running game from the shotgun should look like:
What zone read blocking should look like
O-Line pushes entire D-Line in one direction. Not just straight on blocking. We seem to use a straight ahead power run blocking scheme instead of giving our backs some options.
We then have these multi-back forms from the gun where instead of putting another real weapon on the field, we replace our receiver with a useless extra tight end or full back in the backfield who the defense gives 0 respect to because we rarely if ever target them.
Then to top it all off, you might see 3 different sets in a 6 play drive. All three sets are just randomized plays working independently of each other. There is no cohesion. They are not setting each other up. Other teams exactly what we want to do from each form. Changing so often is an obvious tell to what we are doing and having TEs in who are less than stellar blockers and are invisible to the passing game is not doing us any favors. It's putting extra defenders in the box to hurt the running game.
Les has to make up his mind on what we are going to do. Going to a partial spread and still using power concepts isn't going to work. You have to play to the skill sets on the field. Fournette doesn't need a tight end and a full back in front of him. He needs open space and 1 on 1 situations vs a linebacker or D-back to be successful. If we are going to have a small, speedy receiver like Quinn in the game, we have to use him right. Quick possession routes. Diarse needs more timing routes where he can catch the ball and use his big body to fight for a few extra yards. Dural and Dupre are your tall, speedy receivers, but that doesn't mean their only targets need to be 30 yards down field. Get them the ball 0-10 yards from the line of scrimmage in space and let them make people miss. If Jennings is in the game, the offense needs to be doing a lot of misdirection and zone read runs from shotgun, not pounding away to set up a play action pass because nobody respects him as a passer. When Harris is in, he doesn't need to be under center pounding away with toss dives 8/9 plays to set up one hail mary throw. We needs to be using his legs and ability to throw on the run along with his strong arm. Move the pocket and get him open intermediate routes.
It's so frustrating to know how talented our players are and see them being constantly misused by the coaching staff. They are young. We can't just line up and beat people right now. The coaches are going to actually have to out coach some teams if they want to get any more wins. Les and Cam can't just pound away on offense. Chavis can't just sit back in his Tampa 2 because our guys simply aren't good enough yet. He has to quit being vanilla with his play calls and blitzes and change some things up. Dial up different blitzes and coverage schemes.
The time of having just overwhelming future NFL talent is for the time being, gone. We are young and while the talent is certainly there, it isn't ready yet. The coaching staff can no longer be bailed out by freak athletes. This coaching staff's ability to adapt and make changes on the fly which seemed to be a strength to this program for so long seems to have completely diminished.
Rant over
:INB4TLDR:
Can somebody tell me what LSU's current offensive strategy is? I have seen about 5 different formations used and only a couple plays run out of each formation.
We have the Jumbo I Form with 2 TEs, 1 WR, QB, FB, and RB which is almost always some variation of a dive, toss dive, and occasionally a stretch to the outside.
Then we have our base I Form with a TE, 2 WRs, QB, FB, RB. We will run inside handoffs and the infamous toss dive out of it, and will occasionally run play action out of it. Yet when we do run the PA, we either throw a deep bomb or a screen pass it seems. The comebacks, slants, outs, and digs that worked so well with Mett-OBJ/Landry have basically disappeared.
Then we have our base shotgun form with a 3 WRs, a TE, and the QB and RB. We like to run an inside zone read out of this which is almost always a hand off to the back. When our QBs do actually make a read, it is often the wrong read as they do not seem to grasp the concept. Plus, we do not block for these plays properly. We block straight forward, as if we are doing our I Form dives. When doing these reads, the whole offense rotates around the line moving and pushing the defense one way or the other and creating diagonal cut back lanes for the back to hit. When the line pushes straight forward, the back doesn't have any options for which hole to hit. It is just a predetermined hole and either it is there or it isn't. It normally leans toward the "isn't" option. Then we run some play action off of that, but once again, not enough short to intermediate routes to get the passing game going. Bombs and screens. And when we do screens, it is always poorly set up screens to the running back which is actually a tough touch pass with a 300 pound D Lineman in your face. Why do we never incorporate any bubble screens or read/pass options which are easy, straight throws to our play makers.
What a running game from the shotgun should look like:
What zone read blocking should look like
O-Line pushes entire D-Line in one direction. Not just straight on blocking. We seem to use a straight ahead power run blocking scheme instead of giving our backs some options.
We then have these multi-back forms from the gun where instead of putting another real weapon on the field, we replace our receiver with a useless extra tight end or full back in the backfield who the defense gives 0 respect to because we rarely if ever target them.
Then to top it all off, you might see 3 different sets in a 6 play drive. All three sets are just randomized plays working independently of each other. There is no cohesion. They are not setting each other up. Other teams exactly what we want to do from each form. Changing so often is an obvious tell to what we are doing and having TEs in who are less than stellar blockers and are invisible to the passing game is not doing us any favors. It's putting extra defenders in the box to hurt the running game.
Les has to make up his mind on what we are going to do. Going to a partial spread and still using power concepts isn't going to work. You have to play to the skill sets on the field. Fournette doesn't need a tight end and a full back in front of him. He needs open space and 1 on 1 situations vs a linebacker or D-back to be successful. If we are going to have a small, speedy receiver like Quinn in the game, we have to use him right. Quick possession routes. Diarse needs more timing routes where he can catch the ball and use his big body to fight for a few extra yards. Dural and Dupre are your tall, speedy receivers, but that doesn't mean their only targets need to be 30 yards down field. Get them the ball 0-10 yards from the line of scrimmage in space and let them make people miss. If Jennings is in the game, the offense needs to be doing a lot of misdirection and zone read runs from shotgun, not pounding away to set up a play action pass because nobody respects him as a passer. When Harris is in, he doesn't need to be under center pounding away with toss dives 8/9 plays to set up one hail mary throw. We needs to be using his legs and ability to throw on the run along with his strong arm. Move the pocket and get him open intermediate routes.
It's so frustrating to know how talented our players are and see them being constantly misused by the coaching staff. They are young. We can't just line up and beat people right now. The coaches are going to actually have to out coach some teams if they want to get any more wins. Les and Cam can't just pound away on offense. Chavis can't just sit back in his Tampa 2 because our guys simply aren't good enough yet. He has to quit being vanilla with his play calls and blitzes and change some things up. Dial up different blitzes and coverage schemes.
The time of having just overwhelming future NFL talent is for the time being, gone. We are young and while the talent is certainly there, it isn't ready yet. The coaching staff can no longer be bailed out by freak athletes. This coaching staff's ability to adapt and make changes on the fly which seemed to be a strength to this program for so long seems to have completely diminished.
Rant over
:INB4TLDR:
8
Posted on 10/5/14 at 1:16 pm to NWLATigerFan12
we don't have one
Posted on 10/5/14 at 1:18 pm to NWLATigerFan12
I'm n favor of one.
Posted on 10/5/14 at 1:19 pm to NWLATigerFan12
I dunno. We run some plays and hope something works. Toss Dive is the staple though.
Posted on 10/5/14 at 1:20 pm to NWLATigerFan12
quote:
Offensive Strategy
Posted on 10/5/14 at 1:21 pm to NWLATigerFan12
run up the middle
chunk it deep
chunk it deep
Posted on 10/5/14 at 1:26 pm to monsterballads
Hard to figure out, but it always will be difficult to figure out when one or two of our blockers whiff.
Posted on 10/5/14 at 1:26 pm to NWLATigerFan12
From my observations...
1st down: hike the ball right before play clock expires, trying to confuse the defense by looking confused, handoff or toss(this is similar to a pass since the ball floats through the air). Miss blocks and get tackled.
2nd down: see first down
3rd down: once again the strategy seems to be to confuse the defense by sending different personnel on the field (usually further confusing the defense by doing this several times). Then hiking the ball at the last second and trying a forward overhand toss that usually doesn't work.
Repeat this until the 4th qtr and that is our strategy.
1st down: hike the ball right before play clock expires, trying to confuse the defense by looking confused, handoff or toss(this is similar to a pass since the ball floats through the air). Miss blocks and get tackled.
2nd down: see first down
3rd down: once again the strategy seems to be to confuse the defense by sending different personnel on the field (usually further confusing the defense by doing this several times). Then hiking the ball at the last second and trying a forward overhand toss that usually doesn't work.
Repeat this until the 4th qtr and that is our strategy.
Posted on 10/5/14 at 1:42 pm to NWLATigerFan12
No innovation on offense. Miles brought in his buddy so he could have have someone to laugh with all the way to the bank to cash their unearned paychecks.
Posted on 10/5/14 at 3:13 pm to NWLATigerFan12
Thoughtful post. I don't know enough to say your observations are right or wrong.
As far as strategy goes, I think both the offense and defense have become overly conservative.
Offensively, the team has been unbalanced in favor of the run (something like 70% run plays / 30% pass). It's an obvious guess that this has been to protect the QBs. Both are inexperienced, may have some limitations, etc. They have been asked to operate "within" the play, as I've heard Miles himself say more than once. In other words, they are asked to be game managers more than playmakers and not get ahead of themselves.
I think this philosophy is in play with your suggestions. There is some intent by the coaching staff to run these different formations and personnel groups to diversify their attack. But, in execution, they confine themselves to operating "within" the confined structure of a small number of plays with each group/formation. And perhaps it is behind the use of continuing to use certain blocking schemes when others should be employed, as you suggest-- but that's beyond my paygrade.
I'd guess the coaches believe, in theory, that if/when the players execute these initial plays perfectly, then there is evidence of mastery, and then these small successes can be built upon. But it seems to ignore that they are putting a burden on the players... not only do the players have to execute perfectly within the structure of the play, but they have to out-execute the defensive players who anticipated the play called and have attacked the ball carrier with greater numbers than the design of the play anticipated. I usually dismiss those who complain that they and their girlfriend guessed every play LSU ran correctly ahead of time; I doubt they guess more than a few plays (though if they just guessed "run play" every play except 3rd and long, they'd be right over 80% of the time this year). Still, there are some definite tendencies that we will run specific plays with certain groups as your post suggests. And the opposing defenses will most certainly have a good idea what those tendencies are and will attack them with numbers (more men than can be blocked). Hence, greater difficulty in executing "within" the play perfectly, which leads to the coaches wanting to keep things simple even longer: if we can't execute these base plays out of each formation perfectly, how are we going to open things up.
So, it seems to me that there is the self-perpetuating cycle of not being able to trust the players and open things up because they can't run the stock handful of plays out of each formation perfectly, which they do have trouble doing because the defense diagnoses the play a higher percentage of time than they do against other offenses.
Defensively, it is similar. They don't play an attacking style defense that takes chances and seeks to disrupt the offense. Instead, they play a containment scheme. Don't be a hero. Play in your gap. We don't want to guess wrong what the offense will do and get caught out of position. If we just play "within" our role, everything will be okay.
This isn't entirely wrong. It is important to have people play within the design of the defense and play their gap or zone. It can work-- in particular, LSU throttled the Manziel led A&M attack for two years in a way that no other team could. But maybe we just had their number, too, the same way Ole Miss has had ours in recent years and been more competitive than they should have been. Who knows. But I don't think I'm wrong in suggesting that the Chavis defenses of the last couple of years have been cautious/conservative, and have not been attacking style defenses. And there is very little effort to make the opposing QB feel uncomfortable.
As far as strategy goes, I think both the offense and defense have become overly conservative.
Offensively, the team has been unbalanced in favor of the run (something like 70% run plays / 30% pass). It's an obvious guess that this has been to protect the QBs. Both are inexperienced, may have some limitations, etc. They have been asked to operate "within" the play, as I've heard Miles himself say more than once. In other words, they are asked to be game managers more than playmakers and not get ahead of themselves.
I think this philosophy is in play with your suggestions. There is some intent by the coaching staff to run these different formations and personnel groups to diversify their attack. But, in execution, they confine themselves to operating "within" the confined structure of a small number of plays with each group/formation. And perhaps it is behind the use of continuing to use certain blocking schemes when others should be employed, as you suggest-- but that's beyond my paygrade.
I'd guess the coaches believe, in theory, that if/when the players execute these initial plays perfectly, then there is evidence of mastery, and then these small successes can be built upon. But it seems to ignore that they are putting a burden on the players... not only do the players have to execute perfectly within the structure of the play, but they have to out-execute the defensive players who anticipated the play called and have attacked the ball carrier with greater numbers than the design of the play anticipated. I usually dismiss those who complain that they and their girlfriend guessed every play LSU ran correctly ahead of time; I doubt they guess more than a few plays (though if they just guessed "run play" every play except 3rd and long, they'd be right over 80% of the time this year). Still, there are some definite tendencies that we will run specific plays with certain groups as your post suggests. And the opposing defenses will most certainly have a good idea what those tendencies are and will attack them with numbers (more men than can be blocked). Hence, greater difficulty in executing "within" the play perfectly, which leads to the coaches wanting to keep things simple even longer: if we can't execute these base plays out of each formation perfectly, how are we going to open things up.
So, it seems to me that there is the self-perpetuating cycle of not being able to trust the players and open things up because they can't run the stock handful of plays out of each formation perfectly, which they do have trouble doing because the defense diagnoses the play a higher percentage of time than they do against other offenses.
Defensively, it is similar. They don't play an attacking style defense that takes chances and seeks to disrupt the offense. Instead, they play a containment scheme. Don't be a hero. Play in your gap. We don't want to guess wrong what the offense will do and get caught out of position. If we just play "within" our role, everything will be okay.
This isn't entirely wrong. It is important to have people play within the design of the defense and play their gap or zone. It can work-- in particular, LSU throttled the Manziel led A&M attack for two years in a way that no other team could. But maybe we just had their number, too, the same way Ole Miss has had ours in recent years and been more competitive than they should have been. Who knows. But I don't think I'm wrong in suggesting that the Chavis defenses of the last couple of years have been cautious/conservative, and have not been attacking style defenses. And there is very little effort to make the opposing QB feel uncomfortable.
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