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Message
The Atlantic: Libertarians Can Be a Significant Force for Good in U.S. Politics
Posted on 8/14/14 at 5:27 pm
Posted on 8/14/14 at 5:27 pm
LINK
A very good read. I've highlighted some quotes below.
A very good read. I've highlighted some quotes below.
quote:
There are a lot of people, including commenters on this site, who laugh at Fox News' absurd characterizations of liberals, yet somehow cling to similarly cartoonish notions of what libertarians are. The danger libertarians pose to America is like the danger that sharks pose to humans: wildly exaggerated by a media that reports on extreme events as if they're typical and reacts to Atlas Shrugged in the same way shark-phobics reacted to Jaws.
quote:
[T]he abject failure of Democrats and Republicans, including politicians enthusiastically supported by [anti-libertarians like NYT's] Krugman, [New York's] Chait, and [The Atlantic's] Frum—as well as the ambivalence people like them display to grave, widespread civil liberties violations, lawbreaking by government officials, and the power of the national-security state—has created an opening for libertarian-leaning independents to make gains with the public
quote:
Actually, 40 years [after the Libertarian Party was formed], a lot has changed! Men are no longer arrested for having gay sex. There hasn't been another military draft. Public-housing projects and price controls were dismantled. Ron Paul literally did change the terms of nationally televised debates. . . Important libertarian victories are happening right now. Consider drug prohibition, which is being challenged in multiple states, as are draconian sentencing rules. Like gay marriage, criminal-justice reform seems poised to sweep the nation within a generation. . . The war on drugs has done as much as any policy in modern U.S. history to erode the Bill of Rights, particularly the 4th Amendment, to squander taxpayer dollars, to militarize the police, and to empower murderous cartels abroad. The reforms we're witnessing constitute significant expansions of liberty.
quote:
If fewer people are caged for inhaling the smoke of a plant, that's a libertarian victory. If fewer people's doors are kicked in late at night by police officers dressed in combat fatigues, that's a libertarian victory. If more cancer patients can legally obtain a substance that alleviates their suffering, that's a libertarian victory. If fewer assets are seized by police without proof of guilt, that's a libertarian victory.
quote:
A commitment to liberty and freedom precludes loyalty to either political party. Both perpetrate awful abuses.
quote:
To defend the principle of due process [as Rand Paul did with his filibuster re: drone strikes] against a president who asserts the power to kill in secret without charges or trial is not to present government as "alien and malign." It is to critique the fallibility of men who inhabit government, not government itself. It is an impulse shared by the framers of the Constitution, not the impulse of an anarchist.
quote:
George W. Bush-style conservatives and Barack Obama-style progressives have both been given opportunities to exercise power. The former launched a catastrophic war of choice that many libertarians opposed. The latter continued egregious abuses of civil liberties, from mass surveillance on Americans to indefinite detention without trial. They've both waged a ruinous war on drugs with no hope of success, made themselves beholden to crony capitalists, persecuted whistleblowers, and presided over civil-rights violations against one of America's most vulnerable minorities, Muslim Americans.
quote:
On issues where libertarians have a somewhat realistic chance of winning over their fellow citizens—reining in the NSA, eliminating the most inane professional licensing laws, insisting on due process in the War on Terrorism, avoiding foolish wars of choice, ending the war on drugs, reducing the prison population and the militarization of the police—a "libertarian moment" would have a salutary effect on American life.
Posted on 8/14/14 at 6:24 pm to Patrick_Bateman
I'll bump once, then let it die.
Posted on 8/14/14 at 6:29 pm to Patrick_Bateman
One thing I admire about Libertarians is that they are just like socialists. We both believe that if only our philosophy was purely and correctly implemented we would have the perfect society.
The difference is that Socialists (think Labour Party of UK, Socialist Parties of France, Germany, Spain, Italy, etc) realize that we have to push for incremental changes via the political process by implementing programs that most people want like national health care, old age pensions, unemployment benefits, government jobs and the like and services like national parks, generous paternal and maternal leave and the like.
Libertarians actually believe that we will actually want all of what you want all at once. Plus you are inflexible and unwilling to do things incrementally.
The difference is that Socialists (think Labour Party of UK, Socialist Parties of France, Germany, Spain, Italy, etc) realize that we have to push for incremental changes via the political process by implementing programs that most people want like national health care, old age pensions, unemployment benefits, government jobs and the like and services like national parks, generous paternal and maternal leave and the like.
Libertarians actually believe that we will actually want all of what you want all at once. Plus you are inflexible and unwilling to do things incrementally.
Posted on 8/14/14 at 6:40 pm to Ralph_Wiggum
quote:I disagree. You just don't view it as incremental because any shift towards a libertarian view is considered extreme by those who oppose it.
Libertarians actually believe that we will actually want all of what you want all at once. Plus you are inflexible and unwilling to do things incrementally.
Consider the war on drugs. Libertarians are quite content with incremental changes. Start with marijuana and go from there.
Posted on 8/14/14 at 6:45 pm to Ralph_Wiggum
Libertarians also don't believe in re-education camps like you do.
Posted on 8/14/14 at 6:48 pm to blackrose890
quote:
Libertarians also don't believe in re-education camps like you do.
The Koch Brothers and the AFP and the like believe in reeducating they just don't believe in rehabilitative camps. They do it more like evangelicals. They just buy time and politicians and run workshops.
Posted on 8/14/14 at 6:50 pm to Ralph_Wiggum
quote:And they are libertarians? What exactly do they have to do with this thread?
The Koch Brothers and the AFP and the like believe in reeducating they just don't believe in rehabilitative camps. They do it more like evangelicals. They just buy time and politicians and run workshops.
I don't consider myself a libertarian. I'm more of a classical liberal.
This post was edited on 8/14/14 at 6:51 pm
Posted on 8/14/14 at 6:51 pm to blackrose890
Or massive purges of the people who hold opposing viewpoints, like socialists do.
Posted on 8/14/14 at 6:51 pm to Patrick_Bateman
Fluff piece to get R's to vote independent to keep D's in power. It's The fricking Atlantic.
Posted on 8/14/14 at 6:52 pm to Ralph_Wiggum
quote:
The Koch Brothers and the AFP and the like believe in reeducating they just don't believe in rehabilitative camps. They do it more like evangelicals. They just buy time and politicians and run workshops.
That's capture theory which is possible due to cronyism.
Posted on 8/14/14 at 6:52 pm to Ralph_Wiggum
quote:Did you read the article? It basically addresses that exact misconception.
Libertarians actually believe that we will actually want all of what you want all at once. Plus you are inflexible and unwilling to do things incrementally.
quote:
Many Americans imagine that a libertarian politician, if elected, would never compromise. History and incentive theory emphatically say otherwise.
quote:That is, incrementally. He further explains how, although libertarians hold relatively few (and lesser) political offices, their ideals have, little by little, had - and continue to have - significant impacts on American policymaking.
When commentators speak of a "libertarian moment," they're not anticipating a Ron Paul-like figure ascending to the White House and ritually debasing the Federal Reserve, or the wholesale elimination of the welfare state, or a radical Libertarian Party presidential candidate suddenly breaking America's de facto system of two-party rule. The relevant question is whether younger voters will support policies and elect leaders that enhance liberty in comparison to the status quo.
Posted on 8/14/14 at 6:58 pm to TerryDawg03
quote:What? You consider The Atlantic liberal? Sure, it covers liberal viewpoints. But also - IMO, in equal measure - conservative ones.
Fluff piece to get R's to vote independent to keep D's in power. It's The fricking Atlantic.
I mean, the magazine's slogan is, "Of no party or clique."
This post was edited on 8/14/14 at 6:59 pm
Posted on 8/14/14 at 7:01 pm to Patrick_Bateman
quote:
I mean, the magazine's slogan is, "Of no party or clique."
Posted on 8/14/14 at 7:01 pm to Ralph_Wiggum
quote:
Libertarians actually believe that we will actually want all of what you want all at once. Plus you are inflexible and unwilling to do things incrementally.
Disagree. You have a few, smug "purists" who cling to the all or nothing approach but not all.
Posted on 8/14/14 at 7:06 pm to Patrick_Bateman
quote:
When commentators speak of a "libertarian moment," they're not anticipating a Ron Paul-like figure ascending to the White House and ritually debasing the Federal Reserve, or the wholesale elimination of the welfare state, or a radical Libertarian Party presidential candidate suddenly breaking America's de facto system of two-party rule. The relevant question is whether younger voters will support policies and elect leaders that enhance liberty in comparison to the status quo.
That is, incrementally. He further explains how, although libertarians hold relatively few (and lesser) political offices, their ideals have, little by little, had - and continue to have - significant impacts on American policymaking.
It was Ron Paul and his son who have put the Libertarian movement where it is now. The Red Hot believers of the Libertarian movement are not incrementalists.
Legalization of Pot and ending the war on drugs have been liberal issues as long or longer than libertarians. Gay Marriage and social freedoms have long been liberal ideas as well.
The Libertarians are not going to win office based on personal liberties since they issues are so easily taken by Democrats.
Plus establishment Republicans and even the Koch Brothers want government to help them make money. The Koch Brothers have no problem with the government helping them make money.
Posted on 8/14/14 at 7:32 pm to TerryDawg03
quote:In fairness, The Atlantic has been around >100 years longer than CNN, MSNBC, and Fox News. It's historical standing and political neutrality are generally not questioned. I've been a subscriber for nearly 25 years now, and I'm a proud conservative.
Posted on 8/14/14 at 8:03 pm to Ralph_Wiggum
quote:
Legalization of Pot and ending the war on drugs have been liberal issues as long or longer than libertarians. Gay Marriage and social freedoms have long been liberal ideas as well.
What world do you live in?
Posted on 8/14/14 at 8:05 pm to Ralph_Wiggum
quote:
Legalization of Pot and ending the war on drugs have been liberal issues as long or longer than libertarians. Gay Marriage and social freedoms have long been liberal ideas as well.
I love how all thoughts are lumped into parties nowadays. People can't just have views and ideas, it MUST be tied in with some party line.
It's this weird black and white world that libs and repubs live in. Or should I say blue and red.
This post was edited on 8/14/14 at 8:06 pm
Posted on 8/14/14 at 8:09 pm to TerryDawg03
quote:Conor Friersdorf is no partisan Dem
Fluff piece to get R's to vote independent to keep D's in power. It's The fricking Atlantic.
LINK
This post was edited on 8/14/14 at 8:11 pm
Posted on 8/14/14 at 8:10 pm to Ralph_Wiggum
quote:
One thing I admire about Libertarians is that they are just like socialists
no, Libertarians are really nothing like you.
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