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States Rights and Freedom of Religion
Posted on 7/24/14 at 11:20 pm
Posted on 7/24/14 at 11:20 pm
Interesting write up for a publication titled "The Un-Civil War." The article titled Keeping a Constitutional Republic: The Importance of the Tenth Amendment and States Rights includes an interesting insight into how the Tenth Amendment affects the First Amendment - specifically, religion:
What say you? Does he have a point?
quote:
A more recent and flagrant violation of both the Tenth and the First Amendments by a Federal District Judge involved the removal of a large stone display of the Ten Commandments in the Alabama State Judicial Building. A great opportunity to insist on both States Rights and religious liberties was forfeited when the Governor and most of the Alabama Supreme Court failed to back Alabama Chief Justice Roy Moore in his resistance to Federal judicial tyranny. The First Amendment states that: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"
Note that it is Congress that is prohibited from establishing religion or interfering with its practice, and not the States. According to both the First and Tenth Amendments, that Federal Judge appointed by Jimmy Carter had no legal or constitutional authority to order the State of Alabama to remove the Ten Commandments from its Supreme Court Building.
What say you? Does he have a point?
5
Posted on 7/24/14 at 11:22 pm to TerryDawg03
quote:
What say you? Does he have a point?
Nope. We amended the constitution with the 14th and the 1st amendment is now incorporated to apply to the states too.
This post was edited on 7/24/14 at 11:23 pm
Posted on 7/24/14 at 11:24 pm to TerryDawg03
quote:
Note that it is Congress that is prohibited from establishing religion or interfering with its practice, and not the States. According to both the First and Tenth Amendments, that Federal Judge appointed by Jimmy Carter had no legal or constitutional authority to order the State of Alabama to remove the Ten Commandments from its Supreme Court Building.
I believe this is correct.
Posted on 7/24/14 at 11:29 pm to Revelator
quote:
I believe this is correct.
Make your case.
Posted on 7/24/14 at 11:29 pm to Tigerlaff
quote:
Nope. We amended the constitution with the 14th and the 1st amendment is now incorporated to apply to the states too.
I'm not following you. Which clause of XIV are you referring to?
quote:
AMENDMENT XIV
SECTION 1.
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
SECTION 2.
Representatives shall be apportioned among the several states according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each state, excluding Indians not taxed. But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the executive and judicial officers of a state, or the members of the legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such state, being twenty-one years of age, and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such state.
SECTION 3.
No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any state, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any state legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any state, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.
SECTION 4.
The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any state shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.
SECTION 5.
The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.
Posted on 7/24/14 at 11:32 pm to TerryDawg03
quote:
I'm not following you. Which clause of XIV are you referring to?
This one:
quote:
nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
Posted on 7/24/14 at 11:32 pm to TerryDawg03
quote:
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
Posted on 7/24/14 at 11:33 pm to TerryDawg03
quote:
that Federal Judge appointed by Jimmy Carter had no legal or constitutional authority to order the State of Alabama to remove the Ten Commandments from its Supreme Court Building.
What any of us thinks doesn't really matter other than as an intellectual exercise. Courts have decided this matter.
Posted on 7/24/14 at 11:34 pm to Tigerlaff
quote:
Make your case.
Well it's obviously not against govs interpretation of the separation clause to have statuary that is religous in nature. The Supreme Court building and other Washington, D.C. buildigs contain them. And since the Ten Commandments are one source referenced to establish American law, it's not shocking to see a monument of it in a courthouse.
Posted on 7/24/14 at 11:38 pm to Revelator
quote:
Well it's obviously not against govs interpretation of the separation clause to have statuary that is religous in nature.
The what now?
quote:
The Supreme Court building and other Washington, D.C. buildigs contain them. And since the Ten Commandments are one source referenced to establish American law, it's not shocking to see a monument of it in a courthouse.
A fair argument. It's one source of law. I'd like to put it to Alabama as to whether or not they would accept a Hammurabi or Justinian monument. But your point stands.
This post was edited on 7/24/14 at 11:39 pm
Posted on 7/24/14 at 11:53 pm to Revelator
The Supreme Court building also displays artwork representing other lawgivers, including Confucius and (gasp) Muhammed. In fact, there's a special Fatwa by an Islamic scholar allowing Muhammed's image to be displayed, contrary to usual custom. I'd like to see Roy Moore wrap his tiny mind around that.
Posted on 7/24/14 at 11:57 pm to Jim Rockford
quote:
Roy Moore
A true theocrat to boot.
Posted on 7/24/14 at 11:58 pm to Jim Rockford
quote:
The Supreme Court building also displays artwork representing other lawgivers, including Confucius and (gasp) Muhammed. In fact, there's a special Fatwa by an Islamic scholar allowing Muhammed's image to be displayed, contrary to usual custom. I'd like to see Roy Moore wrap his tiny mind around that.
How does the fact that there are other relief carvings such as Hammurabi, invalidate the displaying of the Ten Commandments?
This post was edited on 7/24/14 at 11:59 pm
Posted on 7/25/14 at 12:00 am to Revelator
quote:
How does the fact that there are other relief carvings such as Hammurabi, invalidate the displaying of the Ten Commandments?
I'm fine with a display of the Ten Commandments as one part of a representation of the legal tradition. That's not what the Alabama display was.
Posted on 7/25/14 at 12:03 am to Jim Rockford
quote:
The Supreme Court building also displays artwork representing other lawgivers, including Confucius and (gasp) Muhammed. In fact, there's a special Fatwa by an Islamic scholar allowing Muhammed's image to be displayed, contrary to usual custom. I'd like to see Roy Moore wrap his tiny mind around that.
Well here is what he said recently:
First Amendment only applies to Christians because “Buddha didn’t create us, Mohammed didn’t create us, it was the God of the Holy Scriptures” who created us.
LINK /
Though he did later say no the Constitution applied to everyone regardless of their beliefs. After he was called out about it.
LINK /
Posted on 7/25/14 at 12:06 am to wfeliciana
He is a true POS.
Posted on 7/25/14 at 12:13 am to Tigerlaff
quote:
He is a true POS
Without a doubt and sadly he is back on the AL Supreme Court. The legal community was horrified but the rural AL voters voted for him.
Posted on 7/25/14 at 12:15 am to TerryDawg03
TerryDawg03,
The Bill of Rights did indeed originally apply only to the federal government.
That changed when courts in the aftermath of the Fourteenth Amendment used the process of incorporation to apply the Bill of Rights to the states, based on the "state" language of the Fourteenth Amendment.
The establishment clause of the First Amendment was applied to the states in a 1947 Supreme Court decision (can't remember it off the top of my head, too lazy to look up).
Some states did have official religions or recognized religion earlier in our country's history (Mass. and Conn.).
Some of the Bill of Rights has yet to be applied to the states (indictment by grand jury and jury trials in civil matters, there's more, can't recall).
The individual right to bear arms wasn't incorporated until 2010.
HTH.
MORE: You're probably wondering, how in the world did the states allow such a power grab by the federal government? Remember that the Fourteenth Amendment was ratified right after the Civil War, and much of its support came because the United States held a gun to the head of the former Confederate states and made ratifying the "Reconstruction Amendments" mandatory as part of readmission to the Union.
Likely would have never been ratified without such a scenario.
The Bill of Rights did indeed originally apply only to the federal government.
That changed when courts in the aftermath of the Fourteenth Amendment used the process of incorporation to apply the Bill of Rights to the states, based on the "state" language of the Fourteenth Amendment.
The establishment clause of the First Amendment was applied to the states in a 1947 Supreme Court decision (can't remember it off the top of my head, too lazy to look up).
Some states did have official religions or recognized religion earlier in our country's history (Mass. and Conn.).
Some of the Bill of Rights has yet to be applied to the states (indictment by grand jury and jury trials in civil matters, there's more, can't recall).
The individual right to bear arms wasn't incorporated until 2010.
HTH.
MORE: You're probably wondering, how in the world did the states allow such a power grab by the federal government? Remember that the Fourteenth Amendment was ratified right after the Civil War, and much of its support came because the United States held a gun to the head of the former Confederate states and made ratifying the "Reconstruction Amendments" mandatory as part of readmission to the Union.
Likely would have never been ratified without such a scenario.
This post was edited on 7/25/14 at 12:22 am
Posted on 7/25/14 at 12:16 am to Tigerlaff
quote:
He is a true POS.
I can understand where a person would be against his ideology and his interpretation of how it should be applied, but what personally makes this man a pos to you?
Posted on 7/25/14 at 12:20 am to Revelator
quote:
I can understand where a person would be against his ideology and his interpretation of how it should be applied, but what personally makes this man a pos to you?
1) he substituted his own ideology in place of established law. It is not his place to reinvent the wheel.
2) he defied a court order from a higher court.
3) when confronted with his ridiculous assertions, he backtracked to save face.
This post was edited on 7/25/14 at 12:22 am
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