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It's too late to call a grandmaster to help when you are one move from checkmate

Posted on 3/3/14 at 8:17 am
Posted by doubleb
Baton Rouge
Member since Aug 2006
36051 posts
Posted on 3/3/14 at 8:17 am
I find it silly when some here pose the questions as to what would "you" do about the Ukraine situation when the match is just about over and Putin is ready to take control of the country.

Foreign policy is not just about one event, one month or even several months. It's a game that never stops. What you do now and how you take care of business and conduct yourself on the world stage matters each and every day.

When you begin your term in office by apologizing for American actions of your predecessor(s), and tell the world about how you're going to be all things to all peoples without sticking up for your peoples first then you are off to a bad start.

Sure you try to make nice, you try to cozy up to a Putin, you try and smooze Arab leaders, and the Europeans; however, a smooth talker wins elections, but it doesn't win on the world stage where nice guys finish dead last.

And when you have an ambassador murdered and a full year later people see you haven't done a damn thing about taking care of his killers they know you are indeed a paper tiger no matter how many threats you make or red lines you draw.

Look at how Obama has handled things in Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran, Syria, Israel, Venezuela, Libya, Egypt, and not with Russia. It's one big screw up after another. The only good I see of all this is hopefully people will remember that Hillary Clinton was the Secretary of State when all of this crap happened.

And no I haven't forgotten Obama got Bin Laden, but don't be misled here, anyone that plays chess knows you always tale a pawn or a knight or some other relatively insignificant piece which does little or nothing to stop your opponent. OBL was brought to justice and that was a great day; however, remember foreign policy is not about a day or a short period of time. Reality is the OBL was hardly a blip on the grand stage.

Reality is that Romney and others saw all of this coming. Anyone watching the chess board could see we were ripe for the taking, and we were being exposed. Reality is that we can't do much of anything to stop the Russian Bear. Maybe Obama will follow Jimmy Carter and not go to the Olympics in protest.... oh wait we just went so that's out.

So the next time someone challenges you as to what you would do to prevent the Ukrainian take over, you need to tell them I would have not given all those pretty speeches 5+ years ago. Five years of playing nice and five years of kissing up to the bad guys has encouraged our opponents and they are on the prowl.

Our next president is going to have a huge mess to contend with while we downsize our military.

Posted by Champagne
Already Conquered USA.
Member since Oct 2007
48382 posts
Posted on 3/3/14 at 8:25 am to
Good thoughts.
Posted by foshizzle
Washington DC metro
Member since Mar 2008
40599 posts
Posted on 3/3/14 at 8:36 am to
Cliff notes?
Posted by Porky
Member since Aug 2008
19103 posts
Posted on 3/3/14 at 8:39 am to
In what manner or to what extent do you think the US needs to be involved with the situation in Ukraine?
quote:

So the next time someone challenges you as to what you would do to prevent the Ukrainian take over, you need to tell them I would have not given all those pretty speeches 5+ years ago. Five years of playing nice and five years of kissing up to the bad guys has encouraged our opponents and they are on the prowl.

Do you believe that the situation in Ukraine is Obama's fault? IMO, the so-called "red lines" are useless...nothing more.
This post was edited on 3/3/14 at 8:53 am
Posted by doubleb
Baton Rouge
Member since Aug 2006
36051 posts
Posted on 3/3/14 at 9:03 am to
quote:

Do you believe that the situation in Ukraine is Obama's fault? IMO, the so-called "red lines" are useless...nothing more


I believe the situation is such as it is partially because of Obama, and possibly all because of Obama.

If you read about the run up to WWII, and you see how European leaders appeared soft, and you see how Hitler was "encouraged" first in Austria, then in Czechoslovakia, and the in Poland. Yea, I know war was declared when Hitler invaded Poland, but Hitler didn't think it would be pre invasion.

Now look at Putin. Look what he sees in Obama. He sees Obama as a modern day Chamberlain. This encouraged him to move on the Ukraine.

I don't expect our POTUS to send troops there, but years ago Putin should have been made to know that if he didn't behave himself there would be stiff sanctions to face. You do this by being a strong force and a world leader, not a weak sister and one of the gang.
Posted by trackfan
Baton Rouge
Member since Sep 2010
19691 posts
Posted on 3/3/14 at 9:09 am to
Posted by doubleb
Baton Rouge
Member since Aug 2006
36051 posts
Posted on 3/3/14 at 9:10 am to
Is that you Neville??????
Posted by trackfan
Baton Rouge
Member since Sep 2010
19691 posts
Posted on 3/3/14 at 9:20 am to
If the Europeans aren't even concerned enough to start mobilizing, why should we be concerned? When Putin starts trying to pull this crap in the Caribbean, Mexico or Canada, then I'll start worrying. And for those who think it's 1939 all over again, keep in mind that France and the U.K. didn't have nukes then. If they had, there would have never been a need for U.S. troops to storm the beaches of Normandy, because even Hitler would have had enough sense to know that you can't invade a nuclear power and live to tell about it.
Posted by wickowick
Head of Island
Member since Dec 2006
45812 posts
Posted on 3/3/14 at 9:21 am to
Posted by Jbird
In Bidenville with EthanL
Member since Oct 2012
73446 posts
Posted on 3/3/14 at 9:26 am to
Posted by cwill
Member since Jan 2005
54752 posts
Posted on 3/3/14 at 9:28 am to
While I don't like Obama's foreign policy due to its interventionist activities I think you've read the problem wrong and are just projecting the tired apology meme.

Obama and Putin have never had much of a relationship...I don't recall Obama ever playing nice with or apologizing to Putin. The relationship has generally been antagonistic. Putin is a thug, basically a Russian Mafia boss and I think that has posed problems for the West in general.

You list a bunch of countries where you see failure:

quote:

Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran, Syria, Israel, Venezuela, Libya, Egypt


Mostly I see problems of intervention or threats of intervention in Libya and Syria.

Regarding Israel, what's the problem? That we don't get more involved and encourage more settlements. Anything that lessens that relationship is a plus.

Iraq? We're out...need to get out more. What's the problem?

Iran? Finally, the sabre rattling and threats of intervention or done and at least its only diplomatic discussions. What's the problem?

Venezuela? Do you want to intervene? I'd prefer we not.

Afghanistan? Time to let that place go...like Iraq it was a waste of time beyond bombing out the terrorists.

Obama's problems and the US's problems in general is its constant intervention into problems that cannot be fixed from the outside IMV and will always lead to long term, demoralizing misadventures. But specific to Obama, his failures are clearly Libya, Syria and Egypt. Intervening by action in one case and the other 2 by shitty diplomacy or sabre rattling.

Posted by doubleb
Baton Rouge
Member since Aug 2006
36051 posts
Posted on 3/3/14 at 9:28 am to
quote:

If the Europeans aren't even concerned enough to start mobilizing, why should we be concerned? When Putin starts trying to pull this crap in the Caribbean, Mexico or Canada, then I'll start worrying. And for those who think it's 1939 all over again, keep in mind that France and the U.K. didn't have nukes then. If they had, there would have never been a need for U.S. troops to storm the beaches of Normandy, because even Hitler would have had enough sense to know that you can't invade a nuclear power and live to tell about it.


It's similar to 1939 in a lot of ways.

And remember, we didn't declare war on Germany until they declared on us.

But do you think Russia stops at a Ukranian takeover? I don't.

And why do we care about anything anymore, we have our nukes. We can launch at any time if we are threatened with invasion.

We can sit over here and as our enemies take over world trade, we can have a good old time. That's what the isolationist believe.

Nukes are a last resort. A weapon you use when it's too late.
Posted by doubleb
Baton Rouge
Member since Aug 2006
36051 posts
Posted on 3/3/14 at 9:30 am to
quote:

Obama and Putin have never had much of a relationship...I don't recall Obama ever playing nice with or apologizing to Putin. The relationship has generally been antagonistic. Putin is a thug, basically a Russian Mafia boss and I think that has posed problems for the West in general.


Obama was slobbering over the guy when he told him to wait until after our election.

Posted by Jbird
In Bidenville with EthanL
Member since Oct 2012
73446 posts
Posted on 3/3/14 at 9:31 am to
Indeed Hackfan indeed.

"From Putin's standpoint, he's in the catbird's seat," Gates said. "He's put himself in a position where we need him in terms of the Syrian chemical (weapons) deal. We need him in terms of the Iranian nuclear program. We need the Russians in terms of getting our (military) equipment out of Afghanistan."
Posted by cwill
Member since Jan 2005
54752 posts
Posted on 3/3/14 at 9:36 am to
quote:

It's similar to 1939 in a lot of ways.

And remember, we didn't declare war on Germany until they declared on us.

But do you think Russia stops at a Ukranian takeover? I don't.

And why do we care about anything anymore, we have our nukes. We can launch at any time if we are threatened with invasion.

We can sit over here and as our enemies take over world trade, we can have a good old time. That's what the isolationist believe.

Nukes are a last resort. A weapon you use when it's too late.


This is the problem with "history repeats itself" and this constant go-to of Hitler 1939....people become blind to the differences. Russia barely has the might to take over and hold Ukraine let alone invade any other country and "take over world trade".

Russia =/= 1939 Germany.

Are you this much of an interventionist?
Posted by cwill
Member since Jan 2005
54752 posts
Posted on 3/3/14 at 9:38 am to
quote:

Obama was slobbering over the guy when he told him to wait until after our election.


Really? That's an interesting take on telling the other guy to wait until after elections to revisit negotiations.

And do you want to also intervene in Venezuela? Invade Iran?
Posted by doubleb
Baton Rouge
Member since Aug 2006
36051 posts
Posted on 3/3/14 at 9:39 am to
quote:

Mostly I see problems of intervention or threats of intervention in Libya and Syria


Egypt, Libya, and Syria are all spin offs of the same problem. All three have become real messes.
quote:

Regarding Israel, what's the problem? That we don't get more involved and encourage more settlements. Anything that lessens that relationship is a plus.


I see Obama's lack of resolve to defend Israel as encouraging many of the other problems. He is very wishy washy here, and it's a sign of weakness, just as was his inaction in Libya to the murders.

quote:

Iraq? We're out...need to get out more. What's the problem?


You don't tell the enemy when you are leaving. You leave when you want to leave and don't announce it.
quote:

Iran? Finally, the sabre rattling and threats of intervention or done and at least its only diplomatic discussions. What's the problem?


We had them over an economic barrel and let them out. We just gave them six months free grace and more money to prop up their economy by relaxing sanctions. Also when they had their "Arab Spring" we sat and watched instead of helping the independence movement there.
quote:

Venezuela? Do you want to intervene? I'd prefer we not.

There are diplomatic and economic steps you can take. Military is not an option.
quote:

Afghanistan? Time to let that place go...like Iraq it was a waste of time beyond bombing out the terrorists

You may think so, but Obama focused on Afghanistan as job one. Do you think it really was? He was indecisive as to the build up and since then has jus tlet things kind of play out without any real leadership from him.
quote:

Obama's problems and the US's problems in general is its constant intervention into problems that cannot be fixed from the outside IMV and will always lead to long term, demoralizing misadventures. But specific to Obama, his failures are clearly Libya, Syria and Egypt. Intervening by action in one case and the other 2 by shitty diplomacy or sabre rattling.

Good chess players don't need to use their military when they can get things done diplomatically and by building coalitions. Obama is not a leader, never was. He can't build coalitions and speeches where he preaches to the other side won't work.

And then when there are good spots for small military actions, he isn't going in that direction.

You don't have to land troops and conquer a nation to make a difference. we have done that far too often, but there are times where air power or a small operation can get in and get out affecting necessary change.
Posted by MMauler
Member since Jun 2013
19216 posts
Posted on 3/3/14 at 9:41 am to


Would be a little better if Putin had $78,000 (a Jeopardy! record) and Obama and Kerry had negative numbers.
This post was edited on 3/3/14 at 10:21 am
Posted by C
Houston
Member since Dec 2007
27824 posts
Posted on 3/3/14 at 9:43 am to
quote:

I don't recall Obama ever playing nice with or apologizing to Putin.


LINK

Posted by Jbird
In Bidenville with EthanL
Member since Oct 2012
73446 posts
Posted on 3/3/14 at 9:45 am to
quote:

Really? That's an interesting take on telling the other guy to wait until after elections to revisit negotiations.
So his flexibility needed was simply he was too busy running for reelection?
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