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Pink Floyd - Wish You Were Here - EP or LP?
Posted on 2/21/14 at 7:56 am
Posted on 2/21/14 at 7:56 am
Okay - getting the obvious out of the way - it was released as and is generally considered an LP. The run time is 21:08 for side 1, and 23:10 for side 2, for a total of 44:08.
So, I am not contesting that - from a technical standpoint, it clearly meets the definition of an LP.
However, an EP is anywere from 3 to 5 songs, depending on whom you ask, and a run time of 25 to 30 minutes. WYWH obviously has 5 tracks - but the "main" track is split into 2 tracks (Shine on You Crazy Diamond) and 9 parts - much of it instrumental exploration that was characteristic of the "bumpers" between the main tracks of other Floyd albums - on WYWH they concentrated these pieces of music at the beginning and end of the album. The 2 SOYCD tracks combine for over 26 minutes of run time, and the remaining 3 tracks (Welcome to the Machine, Have a Cigar and Wish You Were Here) barely average 6 minutes and change of run time.
Because of these factors, and particularly the extended instrumental sections of the 2 heavily instrumental SOYCD tracks, can it be argued that it is spiritually an EP?
So, I am not contesting that - from a technical standpoint, it clearly meets the definition of an LP.
However, an EP is anywere from 3 to 5 songs, depending on whom you ask, and a run time of 25 to 30 minutes. WYWH obviously has 5 tracks - but the "main" track is split into 2 tracks (Shine on You Crazy Diamond) and 9 parts - much of it instrumental exploration that was characteristic of the "bumpers" between the main tracks of other Floyd albums - on WYWH they concentrated these pieces of music at the beginning and end of the album. The 2 SOYCD tracks combine for over 26 minutes of run time, and the remaining 3 tracks (Welcome to the Machine, Have a Cigar and Wish You Were Here) barely average 6 minutes and change of run time.
Because of these factors, and particularly the extended instrumental sections of the 2 heavily instrumental SOYCD tracks, can it be argued that it is spiritually an EP?
This post was edited on 2/21/14 at 8:03 am
3
Posted on 2/21/14 at 7:59 am to Ace Midnight
No
If you took out all of Shine on You Crazy Diamond it would be,but why would you take out such a pivotal composition?
If you took out all of Shine on You Crazy Diamond it would be,but why would you take out such a pivotal composition?
This post was edited on 2/21/14 at 8:03 am
Posted on 2/21/14 at 8:24 am to HeadyBrosevelt
quote:
If you took out all of Shine on You Crazy Diamond it would be,but why would you take out such a pivotal composition?
I'm not even suggesting that. What actually got me to thinking about this was this idea that if you took all those spacey passages out of DSOM - the thing would be about 33 to 35 minutes - now it is 10 "tracks" but other than "Money" - there isn't really a separate and distinct "track" particularly for single purposes - although Brain Damage/Eclipse gets played as a suite on classic rock stations and I occasionally hear Breathe or Time.
And when you take Waters' lyrics - particularly after DSOM, they apparently took great delight in thumbing their noses towards their "bosses" at the record company. I can see them sitting around saying, "Okay - we're contractually obligated to provide an album. Let's make an EP, but puff it up to 45 minutes. We'll give them 2 or 3 singles, but that's it."
Viola - WYWH.
Posted on 2/21/14 at 9:25 am to Ace Midnight
quote:
And when you take Waters' lyrics - particularly after DSOM, they apparently took great delight in thumbing their noses towards their "bosses" at the record company. I can see them sitting around saying, "Okay - we're contractually obligated to provide an album. Let's make an EP, but puff it up to 45 minutes. We'll give them 2 or 3 singles, but that's it."
Nah, I think you are reaching. The band had way too much artistic pride to do something like that in an attempt to sabotage a record label.
It's not like Shine on You Crazy Diamond was the first time Pink Floyd entered extended jam territory, and not the last time either.
Posted on 2/21/14 at 9:34 am to HeadyBrosevelt
Who really cares if a record is labeled as "LP" or "EP"? Just doesn't seem like something worth arguing. SOYCD was a great piece of art and that's all that matters. I'm listening to it right now.
Posted on 2/21/14 at 9:36 am to HeadyBrosevelt
quote:
The band had way too much artistic pride to do something like that in an attempt to sabotage a record label.
quote:
Come in here, dear boy, have a cigar.
You're gonna go far, fly high,
You're never gonna die,
You're gonna make it if you try;
They're gonna love you.
Well I've always had a deep respect,
And I mean that most sincere.
The band is just fantastic,
That is really what I think.
Oh by the way, which one's Pink?
And did we tell you the name of the game, boy,
We call it 'riding the gravy train'
quote:
We're just knocked out.
We heard about the sell out.
You gotta get an album out.
You owe it to the people.
We're so happy we can hardly count.
Everybody else is just green,
Have you seen the chart?
It's a helluva start,
It could be made into a monster
If we all pull together as a team.
And did we tell you the name of the game, boy,
We call it 'riding the gravy train'
I didn't say they sacrificed their artistic integrity - I'm suggesting that they produced this monster (DSOM) - and instead of being happy about it - the suits kept the pressure on them.
Obviously, I rank WYWH as a top 5 album of all time - and my favorite Floyd album.
Although I hadn't given it much thought before the last couple of days, I think I have always regarded it as, at least spiritually, an EP. I think this point is at least arguable.
This post was edited on 2/21/14 at 9:38 am
Posted on 2/21/14 at 9:38 am to Ace Midnight
quote:
I think I have always regarded it as, at least spiritually, an EP
I don't see how you think that, especially with the running time.
It does seem pointless anyway.
Posted on 2/21/14 at 9:44 am to Ace Midnight
While I don't know that it answers your question directly, I thought you might be interested in this video.
I just watched it. It's great.
The Making of Wish You Were Here
I just watched it. It's great.
The Making of Wish You Were Here
Posted on 2/21/14 at 9:50 am to HeadyBrosevelt
quote:
I don't see how you think that, especially with the running time.
That's my point - only the running time makes it an LP - 5 tracks - 4 really, if you regard SOYCD as 1 track, bracketing the 3 "singles".
I hope this thread is not implying I don't regard it highly - it is a masterpiece - somewhat lost between the monsters DSOM and The Wall. The other album in this era is similar - Animals - 5 tracks, Pigs on the Wing (Part I), runs 1:25 and then Dogs goes over 17 minutes to finish the side.
Side 2 has Pigs (Three Different Ones), Sheep, and Pigs on the Wing (Part II).
Certainly reads like an EP (or, heck a 12-inch single) track list - only the running time suggests LP length. Another masterpiece, but this time they were pissed at Britain, generally, and not just the music business.
Maybe it is a pointless distinction, but I find it intriguing nonetheless.
Posted on 2/21/14 at 10:01 am to Ace Midnight
So are you saying if WYWH were divided into 12 tracks there would be no argument here?
The Mars Volta put out a 5 song LP that was well over 70 minutes. The record label split many of the tracks so that it would have a total of 12 and not look like an EP. So dumb.
The Mars Volta put out a 5 song LP that was well over 70 minutes. The record label split many of the tracks so that it would have a total of 12 and not look like an EP. So dumb.
Posted on 2/21/14 at 10:22 am to SUB
quote:
So are you saying if WYWH were divided into 12 tracks there would be no argument here?
Not necessarily, but that's a good point. I would not have nearly as much ammunition to make the argument, that's for sure.
However, as Floyd insisted on keeping the 2 large tracks, intact, and went to all the trouble of dividing out the parts by number, and writing credit for each numbered part of those individual tracks - I believe that is evidence that they wished it to be viewed as such - perhps not specifically a "spiritual EP" as I have suggested, but perhaps to emphasize the point that THEY decided which songs could even be considered for radio airplay because of this organizational structure. They certainly caught flak for DSOM not being loaded with singles, although that passed fairly quickly as the album stayed in the charts for 10+ years.
This post was edited on 2/21/14 at 10:38 am
Posted on 2/21/14 at 10:46 am to Ace Midnight
Both Animals and Atom Heart Mother also had only 5 tracks. That was their schtick. I don't think WYWH was unique.
Posted on 2/21/14 at 11:03 am to liquid rabbit
quote:
Both Animals and Atom Heart Mother also had only 5 tracks.
And I drew the parallel with Animals - particularly as it only has 3 non-parenthetical track names - Pigs, Dogs and Sheep.
Atom Heart Mother was pre-Meddle even - they evolved so much in the 1970s it is hard to compare.
Obviously DSOM, The Wall and The Final Cut had numerous tracks, and The Final Cut had almost none of the "bumper" passages - effectively broken into 12 tight, concise singles. It was originally intended as a Roger Waters solo album and he has 100% writing credit (except for Not Now John), but still a very different structure than their normal albums of the 1960s - particularly pre-Meddle.
This post was edited on 2/21/14 at 11:05 am
Posted on 2/21/14 at 11:14 am to Ace Midnight
Thick as a Brick (2) and Passion Play (3) are other reduced-track albums that I wouldn't consider EPs.
Number of songs isn't the sole determinant.
Number of songs isn't the sole determinant.
Posted on 2/21/14 at 11:33 am to liquid rabbit
quote:
Number of songs isn't the sole determinant.
I agree, but, under fairly narrow circumstances, can we agree that running time shouldn't be either (within reason)?
Posted on 2/21/14 at 11:46 am to Ace Midnight
Meet the Beatles clock in at under 30 min of songs (12 in all).
Not album?
Not album?
Posted on 2/21/14 at 11:59 am to liquid rabbit
quote:
Meet the Beatles clock in at under 30 min of songs (12 in all).
Not album?
No - not at all. Physical considerations aside (when 12-inch records ran at 78rpm and single had a big hole in the middle, they had to be brilliant, be brief and be gone) - I would suggest that 7 or 8 very brief songs from the 1940s to 1960s could easily be considered an album, despite clocking in at under, even, 20 minutes.
Consider The Great Twenty-Eight - a 1980s compilation work of Chuck Berry's hits - clocks in at 70 minutes, even. Barely averages 2 1/2 minutes per track. Pretty much any 6 to 8 of those could be considered an album, despite being as short as 15 minutes - although that would be a stretch at that extreme.
I said that to reinforce that the early Beatles was heavily influenced by the previous era - and Meet the Beatles! particularly only has I Saw Her Standing There even flirt with 3 minutes, and the average track is 2 minutes, 15 seconds.
And the Beatles influenced both contemporaries and the next generation - and, after all, most of the classic Beatles and Floyd albums were recorded at Abbey Road.
Posted on 2/21/14 at 12:08 pm to Ace Midnight
I think an EP by definition is a subset of a full LP. I don't think any of the Floyd albums can be considered subsets. They were full-blown theses.
Posted on 2/21/14 at 12:13 pm to liquid rabbit
quote:
I don't think any of the Floyd albums can be considered subsets. They were full-blown theses.
I can see the argument for this - and I'm not even arguing over any of the others, even with low track counts (other than my flirting with calling Animals a single,
), but just WYWH - because of the points I outlined. I guess it feels more compact and concise, relative to the expanse of some of the other albums - although SOYCD definitely makes up for the missing "space" in the 3 "single" tracks.
This post was edited on 2/21/14 at 12:14 pm
Posted on 2/21/14 at 12:21 pm to Ace Midnight
I somewhat agree with you there. I consider the other 3 tracks as fillers. The album rightly should have been called Shine On You Crazy Diamond.
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