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Message
Let's Talk About Villains: Reluctance to Act Evil
Posted on 2/16/14 at 10:57 am
Posted on 2/16/14 at 10:57 am
So this I've done two things that started me down this kind of thinking:
1. Rewatched The Hunchback of Notre Dame (Disney's Animated) and witnesses the special-ness of Lord Frollo again
2. Started House of Cards Season 2 and subsequently aimed for a slight jab by saying F U > W W
I've said it before, but I don't like narratives focused solely on the villain. Call me old fashioned but I want to see the hero. When creatives try to focus a movie on the villain, there is a small margin of error between contrived and meaningful. Reason being, villains end up "seeming" more interesting because it deals with the sully aspects of human life; things we don't want to admit. Just look at the recent Superman thread, more than a few people said they did not like Superman or Captain America because their moral fiber lacks interesting choices. But is it so easy to choose the right thing to do? Think about every day of your own life, do you really think you make the truly honorable and "good" choice every time?
Not only that, but a focus on villainy has a very good chance to over-moralize the character's actions. Even the ability to rise the notion of someone being a "bad arse," is enough proof of that. "Bad arse" admits fear and almost affection for a particular embodiment. People like villains, which, simply put, is kind of scary. So it goes with two very popular properties that I don't have much affection for: Breaking Bad and The Godfather. And, as I am always prone to over-think these things, I'm going to go ahead and swing for the fences on this one.
(And I do want to admit something: Whenever it comes to a property, like a BB or Godfather, that I just don't connect with, when it seems everyone else does, I'm the kind of person that's going to look for a why. If anyone read my write-up for the Godfather long ago, I fully recognize it as a great film, I just despise the movie internally. The Godfather, to me, is Requiem for a Dream, less effective and actually celebrated for the wrong things.)
So let's talk about moral fabric. The world isn't black and white. That much is certain, and that's the main draw of "dark heroes," and "villain-focused" creative works. We want to see the intricacies, the greys. We want to live vicariously in those places even. And while I think that's ok, the scale of the interest in a grey world is culturally problematic. Concurrently, with so many "grey" properties, We're losing our grip on both the black and the white. In any given situation, there will always be a matrix of choices, some more bad than others. When a characters takes action in film, that choice will merge with whatever understanding we currently have about the "film world." But in either case, we know what SHOULDN'T be done. Not necessarily what's right, but among those matrices of choices, we can have a good idea of the line to cross however vague that may be. So the problem, I think, in many instances, is the reluctant villain. And that's a very specific term. A villain who believes he is doing right, or has no other options, but still doesn't want to do evil are other entities entirely. That is much different from your Hans Grubers, Lord Frollos, and Frank Underwoods. They are compelling because of their relation to the bad they doing, but not specifically because they are reluctant to it. I name those three for three reasons:
1, For Hans Gruber, poor morals are inconsequential to the goals. The ends justify the means
2. For Lord Frollo, this specific struggle is the battle between what he feels is right but what he KNOWS is wrong
3. For Frank Underwood, everyone is either a pawn or trying to screw you over. There is no middle ground. It is his pure belief of power that compels him to act.
But none of them are purely reluctant to evil acts or to their idea of what evil acts are. And I don't think great villains do. I think reluctant villains are just lying to themselves, and there's no struggle when there should be. I don't want to get into the specifics of that in relation to characters seeing as how that can easily devolve an argument.
With the modern trend towards not only grey morals, but villains who we either cheer for or try to "understand," there's a risk of diluting what it means to be good all at the same time. I think there is a natural trend to moralize when reluctance comes into play: "But he didn't CHOOSE to be the villain! He was just born that way!" or "But he was put into a position, he had to be evil! He doesn't really want to," which then can evoke pity. And it takes our hope from a classical place of good succeeding, not to evil turning to good, but to evil succeeding. And that's a dangerous place to be.
But, damn, I hope Frank Underwood becomes President.
1. Rewatched The Hunchback of Notre Dame (Disney's Animated) and witnesses the special-ness of Lord Frollo again
2. Started House of Cards Season 2 and subsequently aimed for a slight jab by saying F U > W W
I've said it before, but I don't like narratives focused solely on the villain. Call me old fashioned but I want to see the hero. When creatives try to focus a movie on the villain, there is a small margin of error between contrived and meaningful. Reason being, villains end up "seeming" more interesting because it deals with the sully aspects of human life; things we don't want to admit. Just look at the recent Superman thread, more than a few people said they did not like Superman or Captain America because their moral fiber lacks interesting choices. But is it so easy to choose the right thing to do? Think about every day of your own life, do you really think you make the truly honorable and "good" choice every time?
Not only that, but a focus on villainy has a very good chance to over-moralize the character's actions. Even the ability to rise the notion of someone being a "bad arse," is enough proof of that. "Bad arse" admits fear and almost affection for a particular embodiment. People like villains, which, simply put, is kind of scary. So it goes with two very popular properties that I don't have much affection for: Breaking Bad and The Godfather. And, as I am always prone to over-think these things, I'm going to go ahead and swing for the fences on this one.
(And I do want to admit something: Whenever it comes to a property, like a BB or Godfather, that I just don't connect with, when it seems everyone else does, I'm the kind of person that's going to look for a why. If anyone read my write-up for the Godfather long ago, I fully recognize it as a great film, I just despise the movie internally. The Godfather, to me, is Requiem for a Dream, less effective and actually celebrated for the wrong things.)
So let's talk about moral fabric. The world isn't black and white. That much is certain, and that's the main draw of "dark heroes," and "villain-focused" creative works. We want to see the intricacies, the greys. We want to live vicariously in those places even. And while I think that's ok, the scale of the interest in a grey world is culturally problematic. Concurrently, with so many "grey" properties, We're losing our grip on both the black and the white. In any given situation, there will always be a matrix of choices, some more bad than others. When a characters takes action in film, that choice will merge with whatever understanding we currently have about the "film world." But in either case, we know what SHOULDN'T be done. Not necessarily what's right, but among those matrices of choices, we can have a good idea of the line to cross however vague that may be. So the problem, I think, in many instances, is the reluctant villain. And that's a very specific term. A villain who believes he is doing right, or has no other options, but still doesn't want to do evil are other entities entirely. That is much different from your Hans Grubers, Lord Frollos, and Frank Underwoods. They are compelling because of their relation to the bad they doing, but not specifically because they are reluctant to it. I name those three for three reasons:
1, For Hans Gruber, poor morals are inconsequential to the goals. The ends justify the means
2. For Lord Frollo, this specific struggle is the battle between what he feels is right but what he KNOWS is wrong
3. For Frank Underwood, everyone is either a pawn or trying to screw you over. There is no middle ground. It is his pure belief of power that compels him to act.
But none of them are purely reluctant to evil acts or to their idea of what evil acts are. And I don't think great villains do. I think reluctant villains are just lying to themselves, and there's no struggle when there should be. I don't want to get into the specifics of that in relation to characters seeing as how that can easily devolve an argument.
With the modern trend towards not only grey morals, but villains who we either cheer for or try to "understand," there's a risk of diluting what it means to be good all at the same time. I think there is a natural trend to moralize when reluctance comes into play: "But he didn't CHOOSE to be the villain! He was just born that way!" or "But he was put into a position, he had to be evil! He doesn't really want to," which then can evoke pity. And it takes our hope from a classical place of good succeeding, not to evil turning to good, but to evil succeeding. And that's a dangerous place to be.
But, damn, I hope Frank Underwood becomes President.
This post was edited on 2/16/14 at 10:59 am
Posted on 2/16/14 at 12:13 pm to Freauxzen
Well, you put a lot of thought into that one.
I'm about to run some errands and I think I need to re-read your post in order to respond with anything meaningful. But I remember your thread about The Godfather (I think . . . I think I posted in it). I believe that different viewers/people derive different meanings or messages from villain based drama and interpret them differently. Reviews or comments on a TD message board will certainly be different than those found, for example, in Film Comment. Some people merely are entertained by a clever or charismatic villain. Others are entertained but also recognize and appreciate the true nature of the character, i.e., that he or she really is an a-hole. Or, perhaps, weak. The see the depth of the character.
OK. Gotta run. Check back later.
I'm about to run some errands and I think I need to re-read your post in order to respond with anything meaningful. But I remember your thread about The Godfather (I think . . . I think I posted in it). I believe that different viewers/people derive different meanings or messages from villain based drama and interpret them differently. Reviews or comments on a TD message board will certainly be different than those found, for example, in Film Comment. Some people merely are entertained by a clever or charismatic villain. Others are entertained but also recognize and appreciate the true nature of the character, i.e., that he or she really is an a-hole. Or, perhaps, weak. The see the depth of the character.
OK. Gotta run. Check back later.
Posted on 2/16/14 at 1:08 pm to Freauxzen
quote:
Just look at the recent Superman thread, more than a few people said they did not like Superman or Captain America because their moral fiber lacks interesting choices. But is it so easy to choose the right thing to do? Think about every day of your own life, do you really think you make the truly honorable and "good" choice every time?
I think it's more of an ability to relate thing. People can't relate at all to someone who has unstoppable abilities and is near perfect on a moral scale. I like a hero with some flaws in my movies to make them somewhat interesting. I mean, I enjoy Captain America and Superman a decent bit when done well, just not nearly as much as other characters.
quote:
People like villains, which, simply put, is kind of scary. So it goes with two very popular properties that I don't have much affection for: Breaking Bad and The Godfather. And, as I am always prone to over-think these things, I'm going to go ahead and swing for the fences on this one.
In certain movies I would agree with you on people liking bad guys, particularly when it comes to horror movies. I wouldn't really put the Godfather in the same boat as Breaking Bad, at least for the original Godfather.
In the first Godfather the main characters never really hurt anyone who isn't a horrible person, so regardless of moral code it actually makes a difference in many ways. In the second and third Godfather Michael starts to becomes a terrible person and this changes (I really don't enjoy the second as much for this reason). I enjoyed Breaking Bad immensely, but never really rooted for any characters.
Of course my favorite movies have a hero fighting against odds who is slightly flawed. Give me Jack Burton, Blondie, Harmonica, Josey Wales any day of the week.
This post was edited on 2/16/14 at 1:10 pm
Posted on 2/16/14 at 1:42 pm to auyushu
quote:
I think it's more of an ability to relate thing. People can't relate at all to someone who has unstoppable abilities and is near perfect on a moral scale. I like a hero with some flaws in my movies to make them somewhat interesting. I mean, I enjoy Captain America and Superman a decent bit when done well, just not nearly as much as other characters.
Na, people explicitly stated "stickes in asses," and other sort of references to their moral purity. Some did mention powers, but just as many mention their boy scout appeal as something that's uninteresting.
quote:
In certain movies I would agree with you on people liking bad guys, particularly when it comes to horror movies. I wouldn't really put the Godfather in the same boat as Breaking Bad, at least for the original Godfather.
In the first Godfather the main characters never really hurt anyone who isn't a horrible person, so regardless of moral code it actually makes a difference in many ways.
I would disagree profusely. But simply put, two wrongs don't make a right. Just because he only takes action against those who are evil, doesn't mean those actions undetaken are not evil in and of themselves.
quote:
In the second and third Godfather Michael starts to becomes a terrible person and this changes (I really don't enjoy the second as much for this reason). I enjoyed Breaking Bad immensely, but never really rooted for any characters.
One of the few it seems.
quote:
Of course my favorite movies have a hero fighting against odds who is slightly flawed. Give me Jack Burton, Blondie, Harmonica, Josey Wales any day of the week.
I agree. The counter argument that I am talking about is the "flawed" villain. Where as "flawed" heroes are those people with something neutral or perhaps negative to overcome, the "flawed" villain, in direct opposition and the one who is even more popular now, is one who has to "overcome" a "positive flaw," to, well, become more evil.
Posted on 2/16/14 at 1:50 pm to Freauxzen
quote:
I would disagree profusely. But simply put, two wrongs don't make a right. Just because he only takes action against those who are evil, doesn't mean those actions undetaken are not evil in and of themselves.
I agree from a moral standpoint. I'm just saying that the fact they aren't killing innocents makes it easier for people to root for them. It's easier to root for someone when you are comparing them to someone who is an even bigger scumbag than they are.
quote:
I agree. The counter argument that I am talking about is the "flawed" villain. Where as "flawed" heroes are those people with something neutral or perhaps negative to overcome, the "flawed" villain, in direct opposition and the one who is even more popular now, is one who has to "overcome" a "positive flaw," to, well, become more evil.
I haven't watched House of Cards yet, so can't comment on that. But looking at Breaking Bad in this vein I think most people started to dislike Walter White more and more as the series went on as he became more evil. Sure, you have the random Team Walt people running around on these boards, but for the most part I think people just wanted to see Walt get closure at the end of BB and see Jessie have a chance at turning his life around. I don't see how anyone with a decent moral fiber could see Walter as anything other than a horrible person in the last season or two.
But when it comes down to it, good villains are fascinating to watch simply because you have no idea what they are going to do next.
This post was edited on 2/16/14 at 1:52 pm
Posted on 2/16/14 at 2:12 pm to Freauxzen
quote:I feel the same way about Goodfellas and The Sopranos. I can appreciate those movies/shows, but they'll never be my favorite because of the lack of decent human beings and/or the focus on shitty ones. This can be helped somewhat if the villains are acknowledged as such, and have some redeeming qualities, but when bad guys are passed off as protagonists, it irritates the shite out of me. I don't like perfect good guys either, but I think that's more of a desire for realistic characters.
(And I do want to admit something: Whenever it comes to a property, like a BB or Godfather, that I just don't connect with, when it seems everyone else does, I'm the kind of person that's going to look for a why. If anyone read my write-up for the Godfather long ago, I fully recognize it as a great film, I just despise the movie internally. The Godfather, to me, is Requiem for a Dream, less effective and actually celebrated for the wrong things.)
Posted on 2/16/14 at 2:54 pm to Zed
quote:
I feel the same way about Goodfellas and The Sopranos.
I agree about The Sopranos, but I disagree on Goodfellas. It's the one well-regarded movie that doesn't play up the mob angle positively.
quote:
I can appreciate those movies/shows, but they'll never be my favorite because of the lack of decent human beings and/or the focus on shitty ones. This can be helped somewhat if the villains are acknowledged as such, and have some redeeming qualities, but when bad guys are passed off as protagonists, it irritates the shite out of me. I don't like perfect good guys either, but I think that's more of a desire for realistic characters.
Bingo.
Posted on 2/16/14 at 4:50 pm to Freauxzen
quote:I guess you're right about that. They glorify it in the beginning, or Liotta does anyway, but by the end it's anything but. I think my biggest problem with Goodfellas is the feeling of being dragged through the gutters of humanity. It is honest though.
but I disagree on Goodfellas. It's the one well-regarded movie that doesn't play up the mob angle positively.
Posted on 2/16/14 at 6:11 pm to Zed
Not to split hairs . . . but to split hairs . . . the "protagonist", by definition, is not necessarily a good person.
Posted on 2/16/14 at 6:18 pm to Freauxzen
Superman was a villain to the kryptonians
Posted on 2/16/14 at 7:25 pm to Jazzbass13
quote:
Superman was a villain to the kryptonians
Morality isn't relative. Or at least it shouldn't be.
Posted on 2/16/14 at 8:48 pm to Freauxzen
Interesting topic.
I think the "problem" if you will with characters like Superman and Capt America is not that the always do the right thing necessarily, it is that they are perfect in every way. It makes our flaws seem so much greater. Its a standard that is impossible to met, so it can be kind of boring. You don;t have to be morally ambiguous but you also don't have to be a complete goody two shoes to do the right thing either.
I don't really have a problem with Capt America as a character, I just didn't think that movie was any good. Thor was pretty much a straight arrow and I though both of those movies were great.
I think the "problem" if you will with characters like Superman and Capt America is not that the always do the right thing necessarily, it is that they are perfect in every way. It makes our flaws seem so much greater. Its a standard that is impossible to met, so it can be kind of boring. You don;t have to be morally ambiguous but you also don't have to be a complete goody two shoes to do the right thing either.
I don't really have a problem with Capt America as a character, I just didn't think that movie was any good. Thor was pretty much a straight arrow and I though both of those movies were great.
This post was edited on 2/16/14 at 8:55 pm
Posted on 2/16/14 at 9:27 pm to Freauxzen
quote:
Morality isn't relative.
Hmm, in many cases it can be very subjective.
Posted on 2/16/14 at 9:32 pm to Freauxzen
Not reading all that. But going by the thread title...it has to be Bryan Cranston in breaking bad. Walter white/Heisenberg is the best criminal mastermind to "reluctantly" act evil.
Of course in the end, we find out he truly enjoyed it.
Of course in the end, we find out he truly enjoyed it.
Posted on 2/16/14 at 9:53 pm to Freauxzen
quote:
two wrongs don't make a right. Just because he only takes action against those who are evil, doesn't mean those actions undetaken are not evil in and of themselves.
So is James Bond or Batman or any other "hero" evil or immoral when he kills bad guys?
Or would we view the Corleone's as evil if they were say 15th Italian feudal lords rather than 1940's gangsters?
This post was edited on 2/16/14 at 9:55 pm
Posted on 2/16/14 at 10:59 pm to H-Town Tiger
quote:
I think the "problem" if you will with characters like Superman and Capt America is not that the always do the right thing necessarily, it is that they are perfect in every way. It makes our flaws seem so much greater.
Some would say that that is the purpose of art. So we take the easy way out by cheering for villains who are closer to our moral reality? I'm not so sure that's a good thing.
quote:
Its a standard that is impossible to met, so it can be kind of boring. You don;t have to be morally ambiguous but you also don't have to be a complete goody two shoes to do the right thing either.
While true, shouldn't we all realistically strive for it?
Posted on 2/16/14 at 11:02 pm to H-Town Tiger
quote:
So is James Bond or Batman or any other "hero" evil or immoral when he kills bad guys?
Batman doesn't kill and he isn't immoral in general.
James Bond is following orders...most of the time. And, well legally, those things make sense. Are they immoral? Tough question, but we're talking a lot about heroes.
quote:
Or would we view the Corleone's as evil if they were say 15th Italian feudal lords rather than 1940's gangsters?
The better question. When killing, or defending, your property was more imperative relative to your enemies. If you didn't have a firm grasp, and defend fiercely, quite frankly, you would day.
Posted on 2/16/14 at 11:41 pm to Freauxzen
quote:
So we take the easy way out by cheering for villains who are closer to our moral reality? I'm not so sure that's a good thing.
This is the problem with seeing things only in extreme black and white terms, the options don't have to be cheering for the villain or hero. I find Tony Stark more interesting than Cap, not because he's the villain but because he more human. Han Solo is another great example in the original Star Wars (Episode IV) he winds up doing the "right" thing, rather that just go back to smuggling. The conflict with in him is more interesting.
quote:
While true, shouldn't we all realistically strive for it?
To a certain extent, but falling short of perfection is not the same as being immoral or morally ambiguous.
Posted on 2/16/14 at 11:53 pm to Freauxzen
quote:
Batman doesn't kill
Ra's Al Ghul (both of them in BB) may beg to differ. He also shot explosives out of the BatMobile that wrecked the police cars chasing him when he was racing to get Rachel back to the Bat cave after Scarecrow poisoned her.
quote:
James Bond is following orders...most of the time. And, well legally, those things make sense
Then the same can be said for the KGB or other agents working for a foreign power. Now I realize a lot of Bond villains are not working for a foreign gov't. But in general in a spy movie, we view the American or other Western agents as the good guys and the Russians or whoever as the bad guys, and that clearly depends on who's side you are on.
quote:
Are they immoral? Tough question, but we're talking a lot about heroes.
That gets to the point, that morality isn't or should be relative. what's "moral" isn't always so cut and dry. Maybe, idealistically we'd like it be, but in reality most of the time it isn't. Circumstances and what side you are often the difference.
This post was edited on 2/16/14 at 11:54 pm
Posted on 2/17/14 at 12:31 am to Freauxzen
quote:
Morality isn't relative
How isn't it? What advances me must bring down someone else. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Good and bad are just the sides of the coin you find yourselves on.
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