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Political Differences via an article on Obesity-Eating

Posted on 2/8/14 at 10:31 am
Posted by SlowFlowPro
Simple Solutions to Complex Probs
Member since Jan 2004
422782 posts
Posted on 2/8/14 at 10:31 am
I saw this article pop up on my facebook feed (via NPR I believe). While reading the article, I felt it almost perfectly illustrated one of the biggest political argumentative points (which certainly has been ramping up lately).

For the sake of this discussion, i'm going to use the following terms in this manner:

quote:

"Liberal" means a person who prefers government to regulate personal behavior through state-based regulation in order to prevent a person from making choices that may be bad for that person.


quote:

"Conservative" means a person who prefers the freedom of personal choice, even if that choice is bad for the person making the decision to act in that manner.


The Distrust Diet

This article, in my mind, basically summarizes the liberal mindset.

quote:

Given human nature — particularly all the ways we’re hard-wired to perceive and eat food — the current food environment (or “food swamp,” as she puts it) pushes most of us willy nilly into extra weight, and we cannot realistically expect most people to have the superhuman self-control needed to resist it.


quote:

Given that obesity has become a major public health problem, it is time for the government to step in, as it has in past public health crises — including, most classically, bringing in better sewage systems in the 19th century to stem water-borne diseases like cholera. Government measures could range from restricting displays of junk food to rating restaurants on how healthy their menus are.


from the outset you notice the major theme that people are not capable of making their own choices, so their choices must be limited by government. however, since this is just the initial stages of this discussion, the author doesn't say these items should be banned (which they have been in areas), because that would be perceived as "socialist" or as like to say, "progressing faster than people prefer."

so what does the author suggest? minor regulations that disseminate information. this preferred course actually completely reinforces the point made in the first paragraph, by suggesting that we only make these choices due to ignorance and laziness.

the author quotes a doctor, who further reinforces this ignorance-weakness paradigm:

quote:

If we start viewing the worst offenders in the food and beverage industries with disdain, their efforts will fail to persuade us to buy their products. We will have inoculated ourselves against companies that sell us junk foods and that advertise and market those foods relentlessly.


when the article REALLY gets into the plan to fix the issue, you get a point of clarity about how they view humans:

quote:

First, I want to say that I actually think that trying to have each person solve this problem on their own is doomed to failure, because the environment is so powerful and it affects us in ways that we can’t always recognize.


ah but if we're so powerless, how could they ever even identify the problem? how will we ever know how to regulate the choices to be made? oh a select class of elites who get to tell everyone else how to live through their version of choice-making regulation? yup

quote:

Unless we can control the environment, we’re not going to be able to control ourselves very well. That’s for most people. Yet there will be some people who can take this advice and put it to good use to lose weight, but that’s not going to be everybody.


if you read the middle of the article, it's actually not that liberal and explains how individuals need to view food rationally and realize that bad foods are bad for you. the biggest issue is identifying which foods are "bad" and realizing the tricks of our perception

quote:

The easiest things to give up are junk food items like candy, sugar-sweetened beverages, chips. Let’s start there, because those are generally very recognizable, and they’re placed in our faces everywhere you go. If we can look at those items and think, ‘Those are being made to trick me, to dupe me and to take my money’ it will be easier to resist them


quote:

So if we think that junk food is ripping us off, maybe we’re going to be less likely to buy it. We’re being ripped off financially, we’re being tricked because this food will increase our risk for chronic disease, and they’re exploiting our human nature to want something quick, convenient and tasty. So be suspicious.


quote:

We can use the money in better ways, but we’re being tricked into spending our limited resources on food that will lead to chronic disease. That makes me angry.


quote:

Say you come into the restaurant and there’s a free basket of chips or bread in the middle of the table. You can think, ‘They’re putting that there so we’ll fill up and not notice how bad the food is — or how unbalanced or bad for us it is.’ So maybe we could immediately think: ‘They’re putting all these chips and bread and sort of garbage food in front of us and we should say, ‘You know what, they’re tricking us, they’re going to make us eat too much. We’re going to immediately tell them to take it off the table.’


quote:

For example, if you go to the yoghurt section, there are all these different flavors, or the soup, all these different styles. When there’s so much variety or they have a special, say 10 for $10, it actually encourages you to buy greater quantities, and then eat more, than you would have otherwise. Variety makes us buy more, as does the suggestion that you’re getting a bargain because you’re buying in bulk.


quote:

Going to a market with a list, and being very careful to stick to the list, can protect you from buying too much. And even better is if you can order online and have your food delivered or just pick it up instead of having to shop yourself. You’re not going to be exposed to all of those temptations.


quote:

For one thing, when we look at food, it can make us feel hungry. So if might help if we have a rule of thumb to leave a gap of three to five hours between any eating. We don’t need to eat constantly but yet if we see food or something that suggests it’s time to eat, we can still feel hungry even though there is plenty of food in our stomachs still being digested. Maybe if we check our watches more and pace out how often we’re eating, that could help some of us reduce the frequency and quantity of what we’re eating. It might help people on diets.


these are all really good rational solutions to the issues. disseminating information from a private person with the intent of educating other private persons is a glorious thing. it's the backbone of the internet, and to steal from stefan mollyneaux, perfectly shows how the modern person cannot claim ignorance. there is far too much information out in the public sphere (FOR FREE) about food to allows the claims of ignorance to become part of the rational consciousness. we know this shite is bad for us, but we make the choice to partake in consumption regardless. end of story.
Posted by SlowFlowPro
Simple Solutions to Complex Probs
Member since Jan 2004
422782 posts
Posted on 2/8/14 at 10:32 am to

but the article doesn't end there:

quote:

The main thing is that it’s too much of a burden for individuals to fight this battle on their own. This is a public health problem — it needs a public health solution. Standards and regulations are the backbone of public health, and we need to develop and implement a series of standards and regulations that will make the food environment safer, so people will automatically get the food they need and not be undermined and influenced to consume food that leads to chronic diseases.


ah...the middle third of the article explains in great detail how this is a matter of personal choice, and attempts to explain to use how we can make better choices, but then it devolves into a discussion claiming that we cannot make these choices. i reject those claims.

what is the justification for restricting free choice? bad vibes (i shite you not)

quote:

Part of why I think it’s too difficult to be suspicious all the time is that it will put us in an unhappy frame of mind. If we’re going to be asking people to do that, we’re asking them to make themselves miserable, angry and upset all the time. We have to eat three times a day. That’s a lot of negative vibe.


and to cap it off, almost a perfect explanation of the liberal mindset

quote:

And it didn’t used to be like that. It’s only because our country has been turned into a food swamp, and there’s danger everywhere we go. And that’s a shame. That’s why these standards and regulations are necessary to protect people.




protecting people from their own bad choices, defined as bad by a magical elite.

...and liberals can't see the irony in their popular anti-religion stance. this is religious-like faith and regulatory control
Posted by TN Bhoy
San Antonio, TX
Member since Apr 2010
60589 posts
Posted on 2/8/14 at 10:35 am to
This sounds like an old anti-abstinence only sex ed article repurposed for obesity.
Posted by SlowFlowPro
Simple Solutions to Complex Probs
Member since Jan 2004
422782 posts
Posted on 2/8/14 at 10:38 am to
so we're all clear, i view the religious people who desire to force behavior of the population via government action as "liberal" just the same...and obviously i do not support actions by people which directly harm another and believe these should be regulated
Posted by MrCarton
Paradise Valley, MT
Member since Dec 2009
20231 posts
Posted on 2/8/14 at 10:41 am to
Great post.

Play by play dissection
Posted by SlowFlowPro
Simple Solutions to Complex Probs
Member since Jan 2004
422782 posts
Posted on 2/8/14 at 10:43 am to
quote:

Play by play dissection

i had more to say, cross-referencing certain parts earlier with things said later, but i already had more than a full OP so i stopped
Posted by Homesick Tiger
Greenbrier, AR
Member since Nov 2006
54213 posts
Posted on 2/8/14 at 10:45 am to
Impressive post Slow. Does this mean that dope dealers will give up their trade to start black marketing Big Macs and fries? That's the only way I see obese people slimming down is if the govt. makes fast foods illegal. Then, they'll just turn to their neighborhood Mac Daddy to get their fix.

Or maybe look to cook their own whopper.
Posted by SlowFlowPro
Simple Solutions to Complex Probs
Member since Jan 2004
422782 posts
Posted on 2/8/14 at 10:47 am to
i just want to know, from people who believe in regulating this area, (1) how stupid they thing people truly are, (2) if they believe they are that stupid, and (3) why the stupid who need regulations to protect their bad choices can become as well-informed as the regulatory-pushing, standard-creating, elite

or to summarize, do you honestly think people who drink sugary sodas and eat fast/fried food honestly believe it is healthy?
Posted by MrCarton
Paradise Valley, MT
Member since Dec 2009
20231 posts
Posted on 2/8/14 at 10:49 am to
You could probably pick an article per week from NPR and repeat the exact same points of discussion, with nearly identical results. If you analyze the position of the statist by starting at the conclusion it always seems to reach back to the premise that individuals are merely tit sucking babies both undeserving and incapable of handling any level of personal freedom.
This post was edited on 2/8/14 at 10:50 am
Posted by SlowFlowPro
Simple Solutions to Complex Probs
Member since Jan 2004
422782 posts
Posted on 2/8/14 at 10:50 am to
quote:

the premise that individuals are merely tit sucking babies both undeserving and incapable of any level of personal freedom.

except the author and their source-person arguing from authority...obviously. THEY don't need to be told what to do
Posted by Scruffy
Kansas City
Member since Jul 2011
72131 posts
Posted on 2/8/14 at 10:52 am to
Better question:

If these individuals aren't intelligent enough to make their own choices pertaining to something as simple as food, how can they be intelligent enough to vote?


SFP, if I just hijacked your thread I'm sorry.
Posted by MrCarton
Paradise Valley, MT
Member since Dec 2009
20231 posts
Posted on 2/8/14 at 10:52 am to
quote:

except the author and their source-person arguing from authority...obviously. THEY don't need to be told what to do



Exactly! That was the first thing that grabbed me about the article. This is always the position from which such arguments are made. It really does feel like something out of Animal Farm.
Posted by SlowFlowPro
Simple Solutions to Complex Probs
Member since Jan 2004
422782 posts
Posted on 2/8/14 at 10:54 am to
quote:

If these individuals aren't intelligent enough to make their own choices pertaining to something as simple as food, how can they be intelligent enough to vote?


ahem

quote:

if I just hijacked your thread I'm sorry

i'll allow it, since you likely got the idea from me and just don't remember it

[egostroking]
Posted by MrCarton
Paradise Valley, MT
Member since Dec 2009
20231 posts
Posted on 2/8/14 at 10:55 am to
quote:

If these individuals aren't intelligent enough to make their own choices pertaining to something as simple as food, how can they be intelligent enough to vote?




The statist thinks the voters should have the privilege of supporting the state. For them it is a self licking ice cream cone.
Posted by SlowFlowPro
Simple Solutions to Complex Probs
Member since Jan 2004
422782 posts
Posted on 2/8/14 at 10:56 am to
quote:

Exactly! That was the first thing that grabbed me about the article. This is always the position from which such arguments are made. It really does feel like something out of Animal Farm.

oh yeah it's obviously the "some animals are more equal than others" argument, which is hilarious when you hear liberals talking about a totalitarian state blah blah blah and use the book/reference

or, another way to think about it is just to use the "abortion argument"

quote:

"You're not talking about (policy) anymore. You are talking about control. You are talking about not wanting to give up your own power to a group of society, half a society, in fact, who would like to be at the table, making decisions (for you)."


LINK

if liberals applied the same arguments they use to support reproductive rights to other areas across the board, then...

Posted by Scruffy
Kansas City
Member since Jul 2011
72131 posts
Posted on 2/8/14 at 10:57 am to
quote:

i'll allow it, since you likely got the idea from me and just don't remember it
You are probably right. I do remember reading that opinion on here from you before.
quote:

[egostroking]
Posted by SlowFlowPro
Simple Solutions to Complex Probs
Member since Jan 2004
422782 posts
Posted on 2/8/14 at 10:58 am to
the real ego stroking was in that thread when somebody quoted a great thinker who said the same shite i did

i didn't get it from him, and i always feel cool when i think of something a great thinker already did that i was ignorant of
This post was edited on 2/8/14 at 10:59 am
Posted by Navtiger1
Washington
Member since Aug 2007
3368 posts
Posted on 2/8/14 at 11:04 am to
That article was terrifying as were the comments of the sheeple that followed it. They were in full agreement that the only way to save the ignorant masses from themselves is more government.
Posted by notiger1997
Metairie
Member since May 2009
58165 posts
Posted on 2/8/14 at 11:04 am to
While I in no way want the gov. to control our dieting choices, every now and then the simpleton in me comes out and wishes that the food stamp crowd could be limited on their choices of food.

Not that I really care what they eat, but I hate paying for their obesity/diabetic related medicial expenses as they get older.
Posted by SlowFlowPro
Simple Solutions to Complex Probs
Member since Jan 2004
422782 posts
Posted on 2/8/14 at 11:08 am to
quote:

every now and then the simpleton in me comes out and wishes that the food stamp crowd could be limited on their choices of food.

completely different argument

when you accept being on the public dole, you should be restricted into behaviors that do not add to the public debt. health is one of these areas (unfortunate reality). i have no problem with that

i wish we didn't have these programs (or at least they were so small they didn't affect our macro economy), but they do exist. the last thing we should be doing is enacting policies that burden teh public coffers by increasing health care costs on the back end. plus, the reason this whole symbiotic relationship exists is due to the terrible crony capitalism that occurs with these programs. i hate that shite, and would love to break that relationship up
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