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Convoluted Plots: Abrams and Modern Film and LOST

Posted on 1/27/14 at 12:14 pm
Posted by Freauxzen
Utah
Member since Feb 2006
37295 posts
Posted on 1/27/14 at 12:14 pm
So Film Critic Hulk again, with a solid post from a while ago:

LINK

quote:

NOW, IT’S NOT THAT HIS FILMS ARE IMPOSSIBLE TO FOLLOW OR EVEN THAT THEY ARE ILLOGICAL (THOUGHT SOMETIMES THEY'VE TIPPED IN THOSE DIRECTIONS). IT’S JUST THAT VIRTUALLY EVERY SINGLE FILM HE HAS MADE HAS BEEN... HOW TO SAY... OVERTLY PLOTTY. AND THAT LAST WORD IS CHOSEN MORE CAREFULLY THAN YOU MIGHT THINK, AS HARMONY KORINE RECENTLY MADE A FEW INTRIGUING STATEMENTS ABOUT THE WORD ITSELF, PLOT. WHEN THE WORD IS VIEWED BY ITS LONESOME IT SUDDENLY TAKES ON A MORE DEVIOUS MEANING, I.E. “IT’S A PLOT!” BY “PEOPLE WHO PLOT THINGS!” AND IF YOU ACCEPT THAT MEANING THAN IT SEEMS NO ACCIDENT THAT SO MANY MODERN BLOCKBUSTER PLOTS SEEM TO BE "PLOTS!" MEANING THEY ARE ALL BUILT FROM PREMEDITATED, COLD ACTIONS, WHICH THEN UNFOLD IN A SERIES OF INTERLOCKING FATALISTIC EVENTS. MEANING A PLOT IS SO OBVIOUSLY CONSTRUCTED THAT IT’S RENDERED INTO SOMETHING MECHANICAL.

AND WHEN ONE THINKS ABOUT “STORY,” WELL, ONE THINKS OF SOMETHING INNATELY MORE HUMAN. WE THINK OF EVENTS THAT MERELY UNFOLD AS NATURAL REACTIONS TO THE PROTAGONISTS EMOTIONS AND WANTS AND THE WAY THOSE PLAY OFF THE EMOTIONS OF OTHER CHARACTERS. AND THE GRADUAL BUILDING OF THESE EMOTIONS LEAD US TO AN EVOLUTION OF STAKES AND PERSONAL IMPORT. THE BEST STORIES DON’T EVEN MAKE US THINK ABOUT PLOT, THEY JUST SEEM TO EXIST. AND IT IS THIS INVISIBLE MODE OF STORYTELLING WITHOUT ALL THE CLAWING-AT-YOU TWISTS AND TURNS THAT ALLOWS US TO ORGANICALLY FALL RIGHT INTO THE STORY ITSELF. WE DON’T JUST WATCH THE FILM, WE MANAGE TO LIVE IN THE WORLD OF THOSE CHARACTERS. WE EMPATHIZE WITH THEM. WE BELIEVE THE GRAND AND BEST POSSIBLE LIE OF MOVIES: WE BELIEVE WE'RE IN IT.


Thoughts?

I picked up this article mostly because of this piece:

quote:

AND SO WHEN WE LOOK AT THE STORIES IN ABRAMS’ WORK WE DON’T FIND MUCH IN THE WAY OF STORY AT ALL. WE FIND PLOTS. IT’S ALL MASTER SECRETIVE PLANS BUILT ON REVEALS UPON REVEALS UPON REVEALS. WE WATCH AS BRILLIANT CHARACTERS PLAY A HIGH-STAKES GAME OF TRYING TO OUTSMART EACH OTHER. WE WATCH THOSE PLANS GET TEASED OUT IN INCOMPREHENSIBLE WAYS. WE WATCH THEM UNRAVEL A STORY WITHOUT A HINT OF ORGANIC DISCOVERY. WE WATCH FILMS WHERE THE MECHANICAL PLOT DICTATES CHARACTER REACTIONS, RATHER THAN CHARACTER’S ACTIONS DICTATING THE STORY. AND WHILE THE MOST OBVIOUS TEMPTATION IS TO JUDGE THE MERITS OF THESE FILMS ON WHETHER OR NOT THESE CONVOLUTED PLOTS HAVE LOGICAL RESOLUTIONS (AND THE INTERNET DID INDEED GO NUTS DISMANTLING THE LOGIC OF STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS), HULK ARGUES THAT THE FUZZY LOGIC ITSELF DOESN’T REALLY MATTER. THE TRUTH IS THAT THE REAL VICTIM OF THIS CONVOLUTED PLOTTING IS TRADITIONAL DRAMA. BY OBFUSCATING CLARITY IN THE NAME OF A GRANDIOSE PUZZLE, WE CAN’T HELP BUT GET IN THE WAY OF THE OPTIMAL EMOTIONAL RESONANCE IN OUR STORIES. WE MAKE THEM FEEL LIKE CONSTRUCTIONS. WE SHOW ALL THE STRINGS. AND IT'S GOTTEN TO SUCH AN OBLIVIOUS STATE THAT THIS IS BAD THAT WE NOT ONLY SHOW THESE STRINGS, BUT THEN TURN TO THE AUDIENCE AND SAY "Hey! Look at all those strings I tied! Don't they look complicated!?!?! I did that!"

SIGH.


This is exactly why I thought Lost was weak emotionally. I almost made this thread, but wanted people to come in at least to talk about convolution first. We see this all over modern film (Nolan - sometimes, Abrams, etc.).

To me:

quote:

SERIOUSLY. IT'S NOT AN ACTUAL STORYTELLING CONSTRUCT. IT'S ABOUT MAKING PEOPLE WONDER WHAT'S GOING ON OR WHAT SOMETHING IS AND THEN JUST REVEALING IT AT THE MOMENT ONE HAS TO. IT'S NOT INHERENTLY BUILT AROUND CHARACTER, DRAMA, ARCS, AND ALL THE GOOD STUFF, BUT PURPOSEFUL TEASING.


That's Lost. Pretty much. An exercise in convolution.

quote:

WHEN ONE LOOKS ACROSS THE SPECTRUM OF ALL THEIR COMBINED WORK: ALIAS. THE ISLAND. LOST. MISSION: IMPOSSIBLE III. FRINGE. STAR TREK. COWBOYS AND ALIENS. PROMETHEUS AND NOW WITH STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS IT IS EASY TO SEE THE CURIOUS OVERLAP. ALL THOSE FILMS TRY TO WORK OF ATTENTION-GRABBING MYSTERIOUSNESS. THERE UNKNOWN OR CONFUSED CHARACTER MOTIVATIONS. CHARACTERS WHO LITERALLY DON'T KNOW WHO THEY ARE. PEOPLE GUARDING SECRETS. PEOPLE GUARDING MOTIVATIONS. CENTRAL DRIVING QUESTIONS THAT ARE INHERENTLY UNANSWERABLE. LATE ACT REVEALS. AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, THE ONLY WAY THESE STORIES SEEM TO MANIFEST IS WITH A SERIES OF BACK AND FORTH MOMENTARY CONFLICTS THAT ALWAYS SEEM TO BE SERVING NOTHING MORE THAN COLD MECHANISMS OF FATALISM... WOW, SORRY THAT WAS WORDED IN A CONFUSING MANNER. BASICALLY, HULK MEANS THAT THEY'RE ALL FILLED WITH CHARACTERS DOING THINGS NOT OUT OF AN ORGANIC NEED DEFINED BY THEIR WANTS AND NEEDS, BUT MERELY BECAUSE THEY ARE THE ONES WHO ARE SUPPOSED TO DO THEM (BECAUSE THE STORY DEMANDS IT).


Which was my ENTIRE problem with Ben Linus. This is the only reason he was alive, to make things happen in the plot.

Anyways.. the bigger question is why this often takes precedent over simple stories?

Great article.
This post was edited on 1/27/14 at 12:19 pm
Posted by hashtag
Comfy, AF
Member since Aug 2005
27502 posts
Posted on 1/27/14 at 12:23 pm to
quote:

why this often takes precedent over simple stories?



Literally, that is the only question that matters. It's entertainment. If you can't enjoy it, that's a different story altogether. But, if anyone tells me they didn't enjoy Lost as it was being aired, I'd just call them a liar.

Yes, many characters were weak.
Yes, there were filler episodes.
Yes, some times characters had no purpose other than pushing the story to the audience (aka, no depth in character).
Yes, there were more questions than answers.
Yes, the answers were far from sufficient.

But, still I have to ask:

Posted by wildtigercat93
Member since Jul 2011
112338 posts
Posted on 1/27/14 at 12:25 pm to
Why is he yelling at me? Did i do something wrong?
Posted by Freauxzen
Utah
Member since Feb 2006
37295 posts
Posted on 1/27/14 at 12:28 pm to
quote:

Why is he yelling at me? Did i do something wrong?


quote:

Film Critic Hulk


It's part of the schtick
Posted by Pilot Tiger
North Carolina
Member since Nov 2005
73146 posts
Posted on 1/27/14 at 12:32 pm to
i hate reading caps

but i still read it
Posted by Freauxzen
Utah
Member since Feb 2006
37295 posts
Posted on 1/27/14 at 12:33 pm to
quote:

Literally, that is the only question that matters. It's entertainment.


Tell Abrams that. I'm sure he thinks it's more than entertainment. Lost took itself far too seriously to "just be entertainment."

But it is a fair point.

quote:

f you can't enjoy it, that's a different story altogether. But, if anyone tells me they didn't enjoy Lost as it was being aired, I'd just call them a liar.


Well that's a terrible way to argue.

quote:

Yes, many characters were weak.
Yes, there were filler episodes.
Yes, some times characters had no purpose other than pushing the story to the audience (aka, no depth in character).
Yes, there were more questions than answers.
Yes, the answers were far from sufficient.


Which is all I argue about Lost. I often say the caveat, "I love Lost, I think it's a fun show, but let's be honest about how GOOD it actually is."

quote:

But, still I have to ask:


We should ask more of art. That's actually the problem.
Posted by TotesMcGotes
New York, New York
Member since Mar 2009
27881 posts
Posted on 1/27/14 at 12:34 pm to
I was not entertained by the last two seasons of Lost. In fact, I really disliked it. It was far more frustrating than it was enjoyable.
Posted by CocomoLSU
Inside your dome.
Member since Feb 2004
150767 posts
Posted on 1/27/14 at 12:49 pm to
quote:

i hate reading caps

Same here...so much so that I actually don't plan on reading that (as much as I'd like to).

One of my million dollar ideas is to create a button in Microsoft Office that takes all caps and turns it normal (and vice versa). Seems super weird that that has never been an option.
Posted by Fearthehat0307
Dallas, TX
Member since Dec 2007
65256 posts
Posted on 1/27/14 at 12:54 pm to
Lost's failures were necessary for the epicness that was fringe
Posted by CocomoLSU
Inside your dome.
Member since Feb 2004
150767 posts
Posted on 1/27/14 at 12:54 pm to
quote:

I often say the caveat, "I love Lost, I think it's a fun show, but let's be honest about how GOOD it actually is."

But that's the thing though..."Good" is such an subjective thing.

I thought Lost, start to finish, was great. Not good...great. Sure, there were subplots that went nowhere (or characters even), but I didn't care about that at all, and it didn't take away from my enjoyment of it or the quality.

Obviously it did for you, but that doesn't mean that it isn't a good show....just that you apparently wanted different things out of it than I did.
quote:

We should ask more of art. That's actually the problem.

But that can also create the additional problem of asking too much from art. Sometimes you overthink and overanalyze something and you end up missing what made it so great in the first place.

Also, to sort of piggyback on what slack said...the underlying, most important (but not only important) thing in a TV show should be entertainment. Like I said, that doesn't mean entertainment should be the ONLY facet, but surely the most important in a medium like a primetime network TV show.
Posted by CocomoLSU
Inside your dome.
Member since Feb 2004
150767 posts
Posted on 1/27/14 at 12:55 pm to
quote:

Lost's failures were necessary for the epicness that was fringe

Freaux would actually agree with that 100% I believe. He's often said that Fringe was basically Lost done right.
This post was edited on 1/27/14 at 12:56 pm
Posted by davesdawgs
Georgia - Class of '75
Member since Oct 2008
20307 posts
Posted on 1/27/14 at 1:04 pm to
quote:

This is exactly why I thought Lost was weak emotionally.


Yea, that's why I cried like a baby during several heart wrenching scenes of LOST.

And frankly, I find his argument against convoluted plots a lot more convoluted than the story which was LOST.
Posted by Freauxzen
Utah
Member since Feb 2006
37295 posts
Posted on 1/27/14 at 1:12 pm to
quote:

But that's the thing though..."Good" is such an subjective thing.


The point of disagreement. ""Quality" is subjective...to a point. If quality was completely subjective then we all wouldn't agree that Lost has good points. Or that The Wire is a great show.

quote:

I thought Lost, start to finish, was great. Not good...great. Sure, there were subplots that went nowhere (or characters even), but I didn't care about that at all, and it didn't take away from my enjoyment of it or the quality.

Obviously it did for you, but that doesn't mean that it isn't a good show....just that you apparently wanted different things out of it than I did.


Na. I liked the experience, but as a complete narrative, it wasn't good at all. That's what this post was about. We're not really talking about quality, and my Lost rants get into that area, we're talking about character, storytelling, and how Lost is constructed.

quote:

But that can also create the additional problem of asking too much from art. Sometimes you overthink and overanalyze something and you end up missing what made it so great in the first place.


You should read the article, it gets into all of that.

Posted by BlacknGold
He Hate Me
Member since Mar 2009
12051 posts
Posted on 1/27/14 at 1:12 pm to
off topic real quick: when did fringe really start hooking people?

i remember watching season 1 and thought it was an okay show but it never really drew me in. i stopped watching it after that. when did it become an obsession? im thinking of starting the show over and giving it a real shot this time because of the great things ive heard.
Posted by Freauxzen
Utah
Member since Feb 2006
37295 posts
Posted on 1/27/14 at 1:15 pm to
quote:

And frankly, I find his argument against convoluted plots a lot more convoluted than the story which was LOST


I don't know what to tell you, he actually does an excellent job of making extremely hard to grasp ideas much more simple. That's the draw of his persona and his writing.

He boils it all down right here:

quote:

TO BEST EXPLAIN WHY THIS MATTERS, LET’S GET HYPOTHETICAL: IF YOU (THE REAL YOU READING THIS NOW) WERE WALKING DOWN THE STREET AND SOMEONE CAME UP TO YOU AND YELLED, “Quick! I'm your long-lost brother you never knew you had! Someone's after me! We have to run!!!!" YOU WOULD BE COMPLETELY TAKEN OFF-GUARD, WOULDN'T YOU? NOW, WOULD YOU BE CURIOUS? WOULD IT BE CRAZY? WOULD IT BE EXCITING? SURE! BUT YOU WOULDN’T EXACTLY BE INVESTED. YOU WOULD BE SUSPICIOUS. YOU WOULD DISTANCE YOURSELF. MEANWHILE, IF YOUR ACTUAL BROTHER THAT YOU'VE KNOWN AND LOVED YOUR WHOLE LIFE SHOWED UP AND SAID “Quick! Someone's after me! We have to run!" YOU WOULD BE MUCH MORE INVESTED! IT’S YOUR BROTHER, AFTER ALL. BOTH ARE YOUR "BROTHERS" BUT ONE IS A PERSON WITH WHOM YOU HAVE A SHARED HISTORY AND LOVE. YOU HAVE ALL THE RELEVANT INFORMATION TO YOUR BOND THUS THERE WOULD BE A SUBSTANTIAL ROOTING INTEREST. AND BETWEEN THESE TWO SCENARIOS, THE MORE DRAMATIC AND COMPELLING SITUATION SHOULD BE OBVIOUS, RIGHT?

SO WHY DO SO MANY MODERN BLOCKBUSTERS OPT FOR THE FIRST OPTION?
Posted by Bard
Definitely NOT an admin
Member since Oct 2008
51686 posts
Posted on 1/27/14 at 1:17 pm to

quote:

It's part of the schtick


So the guy that posts his critique of someone else's schtick does so with his own schtick?

Posted by Freauxzen
Utah
Member since Feb 2006
37295 posts
Posted on 1/27/14 at 1:18 pm to
quote:

off topic real quick: when did fringe really start hooking people?


Probably the end of Season 1.

quote:

i remember watching season 1 and thought it was an okay show but it never really drew me in. i stopped watching it after that. when did it become an obsession? im thinking of starting the show over and giving it a real shot this time because of the great things ive heard.


Fringe gives you bites where Lost gave you chunks. So it took significantly longer for the mystery to explode, but it's better because of it. In comparison, the question of Lost, "Where are we?" was explicit before the show even started. Fringe, I won't spoil, but it's a slow burn in comparison.

The mythology explodes, the characters become much more complex and the entire premise, born out of the first 6 episodes even, is unleashed. Brilliant show.
Posted by CocomoLSU
Inside your dome.
Member since Feb 2004
150767 posts
Posted on 1/27/14 at 1:18 pm to
quote:

off topic real quick: when did fringe really start hooking people?

i remember watching season 1 and thought it was an okay show but it never really drew me in. i stopped watching it after that. when did it become an obsession? im thinking of starting the show over and giving it a real shot this time because of the great things ive heard.

I don't think it ever really "hooked" me as much as I just watched the first episode and liked it so I kept watching.

Fringe is one of those shows that I was glad I got in at the beginning...it seems like it got more popular as it went on (at least on this board).

It's just good. I will say that season one had a lot more "serial" episodes. Although it also had overarching plots, it definitely had its "monster of the week" premises...which don't get me wrong, I liked those too. But as the show continued, the big plots were fleshed out a lot more/better, and it built into the final season, and ended on such a high note with a great finale.

If you were interested at all in what you saw in season one, I'd definitely say give the whole series a shot. It's surprisingly great IMO.
Posted by Baloo
Formerly MDGeaux
Member since Sep 2003
49645 posts
Posted on 1/27/14 at 1:20 pm to
I can't read when someone is "shouting" like that. If you want to make salient point, Hulk, stop yelling. You're making my head hurt.
Posted by Freauxzen
Utah
Member since Feb 2006
37295 posts
Posted on 1/27/14 at 1:26 pm to
quote:

I can't read when someone is "shouting" like that. If you want to make salient point, Hulk, stop yelling. You're making my head hurt.


I don't know why this never bothers me. Maybe too much leet speak experience. I just look past it, haha.
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