Capitalism is the Exploitation of Man by Man. | Page 3 | TigerDroppings.com

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goatmilker
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re: Capitalism is the Exploitation of Man by Man.


Anyone disagree with this?
Me.

If so, why?

I made 5 dollars a yard mowed back in the day.
They paid me what I asked to do the work.
I did not 'exploit' them.
Perhaps the kid I outbid felt 'exploited' by me.
Perhaps that kid became President one day to heal and fix his feelings of being 'exploited' and to ensure no one else ever had to suffer what he did.






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WildTchoupitoulas
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re: Capitalism is the Exploitation of Man by Man.


quote:

Between government and capitalists, only one's true obligation is representing the people's interests as a whole and as such, shoulders the greater burden of the blame.

The 'People' in this case are over represented by the corporations due to their ability to create wealth and use that wealth to influence government.

This is all perfectly legal and to be expected. If you say a corporation is a person, and that money = speech, and that the People retain the right to influence government through Free Speech, how can this not be happening?

It only makes sense. If I was a wealth generating entity, I would do everything under the law to create wealth for my shareholders - indeed, I am legally obligated to.

None of this would be any problem at all if the interests of the corporations were perfectly in line with the interests of all the People. But this is not the caser, and shouldn't be expected to be the case. What is good for General Motors is not necessarily good for America.

There is no blame to be laid, it is the way our system works. If the People who are not corporations want to change the system such that wealth is less of an influence on policy, they have to have more influence on government than the corporations. Influence = speech, money = speech, influence = money.

I'm just not sure why so many people seem to think our government exists in some sort of vacuum isolated for our capital dynamics.






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Mohican
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re: Capitalism is the Exploitation of Man by Man.


quote:

How can the average citizen, not a corporation, be able to match the level of speech/wealth that an entity specifically designed to create wealth? Who has the influence in our system?



Why should they be able to? It is a person's choice to speak. Simply speaking does not institute policy. Policy must be voted on to be implemented. Just because you hear free speech doesn't mean you act on it.

What makes the wealthy capitalist and the homeless bum EQUAL is the ability to VOTE. One man one vote one time. The election process is the most important process to our government system. It determines policy (or should provided the voters do their due diligence and that government is transparent - limited by the Constitution).


quote:

Why do we think we need to seperate the government form capitalists?


Why do we think we need to seperate the government from unions?






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WildTchoupitoulas
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re: Capitalism is the Exploitation of Man by Man.


quote:

Corruption starts with the concentration of power. Once power is concentrated, corruption will inevitably follow. Don't kill the flies eating the shite as that task will never end. You will run out of bug spray before the world runs out of flies. Instead, remove the shite and the flies will leave on their own.

"Corruption" implies illegal activities. The corporations have used their power to influence government policy in their favor. Who wouldn't? Again, it's all perfectly legal.

It's a matter of who we want to have the most influence on our government. Should "One man, one vote" extend to redress of grievances? Perhaps, but it doesn't as it stands now.






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UncleFestersLegs
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re: Capitalism is the Exploitation of Man by Man.


quote:

"Corruption" implies illegal activities.


Really?






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WildTchoupitoulas
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re: Capitalism is the Exploitation of Man by Man.


quote:

Simply speaking does not institute policy.

If you have no wealth, your speech is drowned out by those who do.
quote:

The election process is the most important process to our government system.

It is important, but who determines who can run for office? Money.
So when the bum goes into the polling place, who has chosen the list of candidates he is presented with? What are his choices?

But the election process does not necessarily determine policy. If that were the case so many conservatives would not have been hoodwinked by the Republican party in 2000.
quote:

Why do we think we need to seperate the government from unions?

That makes absolutely no sense in responseto my question. The government is filled with capitalists - all of them, in fact. All of the government is NOT unions.

That was just the predictable, "But what about the UNIONS?" cry that comes up every time a discussion regarding the rights of corporations is brought up. It is but a red-herring in this discussion.






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CITWTT
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re: Capitalism is the Exploitation of Man by Man.


Oh, by the way go tell that to any surviving prisoners of the Gulags(read the entire Gulag Archipelago) of the USSR, the prison labor that provides all of your cheap shite at China Mart, you might think of sending flowers to the killing fields of Cambodia, and pray for all of the "slave" and child labor making your Air Jordans in southeast Asia for their govts benefit. Oh, BTW they are all victims of communism and its exploitative use of man.





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WildTchoupitoulas
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re: Capitalism is the Exploitation of Man by Man.


quote:

Really?

If not illegal, it at least implies a judgement. I was merely trying to describe the dynamics without providing any judgement as to whether the dynamic is 'good' or 'bad'. It is currently how the system works. You cannot make a judgement of the system until you see how it works objectively.

You could make a valid argument that concentration of power and the influence on the People that power has is 'bad'. I was just trying not to go there - just yet.






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Zach
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re: Capitalism is the Exploitation of Man by Man.


quote:

If you have no wealth, your speech is drowned out by those who do.

Why is that bad?

quote:

So when the bum goes into the polling place, who has chosen the list of candidates he is presented with? What are his choices?

Bums should not be allowed to vote.






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WildTchoupitoulas
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re: Capitalism is the Exploitation of Man by Man.


quote:

you might think of sending flowers to the killing fields of Cambodia, and pray for all of the "slave" and child labor making your Air Jordans in southeast Asia for their govts benefit.

I love how people so often refer to the communist Cambodia "killing fields" but never mention the anti-communist purges in Indonesia in the 60's.






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Hugo Stiglitz
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re: Capitalism is the Exploitation of Man by Man.


quote:

Oh, by the way go tell that to any surviving prisoners of the Gulags(read the entire Gulag Archipelago) of the USSR, the prison labor that provides all of your cheap shite at China Mart, you might think of sending flowers to the killing fields of Cambodia, and pray for all of the "slave" and child labor making your Air Jordans in southeast Asia for their govts benefit. Oh, BTW they are all victims of communism and its exploitative use of man.

Communism is the exploitation of man by man, capitalism is the opposite.






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SoulGlo
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re: Capitalism is the Exploitation of Man by Man.


quote:

quote:
It is capitalism that is manipulating the government.



this can't exist without a government powerful enough to interfere with markets though







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Mohican
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Member since Nov 2012
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re: Capitalism is the Exploitation of Man by Man.


quote:

It is important, but who determines who can run for office? Money.
So when the bum goes into the polling place, who has chosen the list of candidates he is presented with? What are his choices?


That is a flaw in the election process, not the entire system itself.

quote:

That makes absolutely no sense in responseto my question. The government is filled with capitalists - all of them, in fact. All of the government is NOT unions.

That was just the predictable, "But what about the UNIONS?" cry that comes up every time a discussion regarding the rights of corporations is brought up. It is but a red-herring in this discussion.



It absolutely makes sense. Unions enact their free speech just as powerfully as individual corporations. It is the same thing in principle.

Was Barack Obama EVER a capitalist? At what point?

I have nothing against unions, they are a product of a free market, but they are seen as the opposite of capitalists. They accumulate wealth for basically one reason and that is to influence policy. Corporations may spend capital on influencing policy, but they are also spending it on operating their business.

But the same principle applies to any entity involved in using money for free speech purposes to influence policy. See the NRA.

And, again, speech must be received and acted upon for it to be powerful. The power of free speech is there, certainly, but it is limited and surpassed by the power of one person one vote.






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NC_Tigah
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re: Capitalism is the Exploitation of Man by Man.


quote:

Communism is the exploitation of man by man, capitalism is the opposite.
+1



Well said!






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NC_Tigah
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re: Capitalism is the Exploitation of Man by Man.








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ironsides
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re: Capitalism is the Exploitation of Man by Man.


quote:

I have nothing against unions, they are a product of a free market, but they are seen as the opposite of capitalists. They accumulate wealth for basically one reason and that is to influence policy. Corporations may spend capital on influencing policy, but they are also spending it on operating their business.


While they were a product of the free market they have grown into something that is decidedly anti free market. In a free market you would have the option to join or not join which is not the case in many states. In a free market corporations would be able to also choose to fire striking or underperforming union members which is not the case. Governmental law has changed unions into a protected class.






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SoulGlo
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re: Capitalism is the Exploitation of Man by Man.


quote:

The 'People' in this case are over represented by the corporations due to their ability to create wealth and use that wealth to influence government.



funny how you leave unions out of the equations. A group of people spending money to influence government is evil and bad, yet another group of people doing the same thing(except with involuntary/compulsory confiscation from members of the group) is encouraged and supported.






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Mohican
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re: Capitalism is the Exploitation of Man by Man.


quote:

ironsides



Agree 100%.






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davesdawgs
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re: Capitalism is the Exploitation of Man by Man.


quote:

Capitalism is the Exploitation of Man by Man.
Anyone disagree with this?

If so, why?


Yes, any system can be exploited without reasonable controls but there is nothing inherently exploitative about capitalism. Capitalism evolved naturally as a practical and more efficient means of exchange of goods and services replacing barter which became impractical. In a pure free market, capitalism is pretty much self-regulating as the goods of producers who provide the most value are selected by consumers. This process promotes continuous improvement through efficiency and innovation. The problem of course is completely free markets don't exist due to a myriad of complex influences. As a result governments impose regulations/restrictions with the purpose of controlling perceived negative conditions and influences. Monopolies are the classic case in which regulation is a necessary evil to prevent exploitation of markets/man.



This post was edited on 2/15 at 11:53 am


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WildTchoupitoulas
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re: Capitalism is the Exploitation of Man by Man.


quote:

It absolutely makes sense. Unions enact their free speech just as powerfully as individual corporations.

Except that unions do not exist soley to create wealth which is in turn used to redress grievances.

However the unions do represent a concentration of voting power - which has been eroded DRASTICALLY since the Powell Memo.
quote:

Was Barack Obama EVER a capitalist? At what point?

As soon as he invested his wealth into capital markets in order to create more wealth. Do you think he hides all of his wealth in his matress as Federal Reserve Notes?
quote:

I have nothing against unions, they are a product of a free market, but they are seen as the opposite of capitalists. They accumulate wealth for basically one reason and that is to influence policy. Corporations may spend capital on influencing policy, but they are also spending it on operating their business.

Both corporations and unions use their wealth to influence policy as well as operating expenses.
quote:

And, again, speech must be received and acted upon for it to be powerful. The power of free speech is there, certainly, but it is limited and surpassed by the power of one person one vote.

Let's suppose I want you to run for political office. To that end I offer you $1,000,000.00 for your campaign. If you win, do you not have obligations to your backer? Now, let's see what is involved in winning an election.

"The 2012 presidential and congressional elections will be the most expensive on record, the nonpartisan Center for Responsive Politics estimates" LINK

If transfer of wealth was not vital to winning an election, why do we spend so much on it?

quote:

speech must be received and acted upon for it to be powerful.

REVEALED: Nancy Pelosi Blocked Credit Card Reform While Investing Millions in Exclusive Visa Stock Offering... LINK






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