Rant on the idea and underpinnings of secession | TigerDroppings.com

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TheHiddenFlask
Clemson Fan
The Welsh red light district
Member since Jul 2008
16855 posts

Rant on the idea and underpinnings of secession


First off, the idea of secession is silly and utopian.

Now that we have that out of the way:

The reason people want to secede, in my opinion, is similar to the reason for the revolutionary war, except completely upside down.

tax paying Americans have carried a heavier and heavier burden over the past few decades and the demographics have now flipped where the takers are going to be the majority. This majority of takers now has a carte blanche to vote for taxes on the tax payers. Tax payers are basically having taxation without representation.

A system where non tax payers can vote for taxes (that they don't pay) is completely and inherently doomed. A perfect example is property taxation in rural areas. people who own farmland (~2-4% of the population in most rural areas) pay 100% of the taxes for the eduation of 100% of the children. Virtually any time a property tax is passed, there is absolutely no disencivization for non landowners (most houses are under the value of homestead exemption) for 95% of the voters to vote no. When that happens, all of a sudden, a good and useful tax system that made a lot of sense to support drainage boards and rural roads starts to devolve in a way for people to get free things.

That's where we are at in America and it has nothing to do with 4 more years of Obama, it has everything to do with taxation without representation.

/rant

nb4tl;dr







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rsande2
LSU Fan
Member since Jan 2006
3423 posts

re: Rant on the idea and underpinnings of secession


quote:

First off, the idea of secession is silly and utopian.


Well if you think it is silly because it likely won't amount to anything, I can agree with that.

quote:

tax paying Americans have carried a heavier and heavier burden over the past few decades and the demographics have now flipped where the takers are going to be the majority


Agreed.

quote:

A system where non tax payers can vote for taxes (that they don't pay) is completely and inherently doomed.


True.

quote:

That's where we are at in America and it has nothing to do with 4 more years of Obama, it has everything to do with taxation without representation.


Hmm, well partly, but this administration is a very divisive my way or the highway crowd. I think that both political parties a much farther to the left and right than they used to be. I am considering changing my affiliation back to ind. or none.....






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buddhavista
Member since Jul 2012
3543 posts

re: Rant on the idea and underpinnings of secession


quote:

tax paying Americans have carried a heavier and heavier burden over the past few decades and the demographics have now flipped where the takers are going to be the majority. This majority of takers now has a carte blanche to vote for taxes on the tax payers.

This just isn't true at a federal level. Marginal tax rates and effective tax rates are lower now than throughout much of our history. The top statutory tax rate in 2009 was 35%; back in 1958, it was about 90%! Capital gains taxes are also down.

quote:

A system where non tax payers can vote for taxes (that they don't pay) is completely and inherently doomed.

well I tend to agree with this, but we have a representational democracy that shields us from the worst of this at the federal level.
quote:

A perfect example is property taxation in rural areas. people who own farmland (~2-4% of the population in most rural areas) pay 100% of the taxes for the eduation of 100% of the children. Virtually any time a property tax is passed, there is absolutely no disencivization for non landowners (most houses are under the value of homestead exemption) for 95% of the voters to vote no. When that happens, all of a sudden, a good and useful tax system that made a lot of sense to support drainage boards and rural roads starts to devolve in a way for people to get free things.

This is not a perfect example, as property tax rates are at a local/state level and not a federal level. You want your town to leave the state? Is that it.

Are you mad about what taxes obama might or might not raise? I see this as silly, and if you get mad, get mad at congress. Obama can't tax by fiat, it has to come from congress. And the HoR is controlled by republicans.






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Interception
Providence Fan
Member since Nov 2008
11089 posts

re: Rant on the idea and underpinnings of secession


I think it's mostly bellyaching about the election and the course the country is on. It's almost unbearable to watch as we slip into the abyss. People are expressing themselves and trying to get rile out of the Feds more than anything IMO. If the election had went the other way we might still be hearing about Succession.





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TheHiddenFlask
Clemson Fan
The Welsh red light district
Member since Jul 2008
16855 posts

re: Rant on the idea and underpinnings of secession


quote:

This just isn't true at a federal level. Marginal tax rates and effective tax rates are lower now than throughout much of our history. The top statutory tax rate in 2009 was 35%; back in 1958, it was about 90%! Capital gains taxes are also down.


That's a good argument, but it was not the one i made. It's less of a push and more of a pull. It's the growth of the takers that has been the problem.

quote:

Are you mad


I'm not mad at all. Dissapointed at worst.

quote:

I see this as silly, and if you get mad, get mad at congress.


Nope. They are there to represent the people who elected them. It's not their fault.

quote:

Obama can't tax by fiat, it has to come from congress.


Spending money without taxing is equivalent to taxing.

quote:

And the HoR is controlled by republicans.


It's not the taxes that are the problem, it's the system.

There is a guy who shines shoes in my office building. Every morning I pass him and think, "if I was him, there is no way in hell I would show up to work every day. I would just sit at home and collect welfare". That's my rational thought as a self driven human. I have no idea in the world why people are keeping menial jobs.






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90proofprofessional
LSU Fan
Member since Mar 2004
8874 posts

re: Rant on the idea and underpinnings of secession


quote:

tax paying Americans see that they will have to carry a heavier and heavier burden in the next few decades and the demographics seem to be flipping where the takers are going to be the ajority

just a minor fix, taxes are still low

but this secession thing is motherfricking retarded and an embarassment






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90proofprofessional
LSU Fan
Member since Mar 2004
8874 posts

re: Rant on the idea and underpinnings of secession


quote:

Spending money without taxing is equivalent to taxing.

yep and a tax cut without a spending cut is not a tax cut






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TrueTiger
LSU Fan
Chicken's most valuable
Member since Sep 2004
9992 posts

re: Rant on the idea and underpinnings of secession


Are you saying that secession is silly and utopian but revolution is legit? Or it just me?





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buddhavista
Member since Jul 2012
3543 posts

re: Rant on the idea and underpinnings of secession


quote:

That's a good argument, but it was not the one i made. It's less of a push and more of a pull. It's the growth of the takers that has been the problem.


So.....the fact that you would likely have paid more in taxes at any other point in time over the last 50 years based on your income is irrelevant? Might be a gap in the late 80s /early 90s when it would have been less but not much of a time.
quote:

Spending money without taxing is equivalent to taxing.

All appropriation bills have to originate in the house. While non-discretionary spending doesn't have to have an appropriation bill attached to it, any growth in it must still be tied to a bill.
quote:

It's not the taxes that are the problem, it's the system.

The problem is congress. Congress is corrupt and they have no reason to reduce spending. Either side.
quote:

There is a guy who shines shoes in my office building. Every morning I pass him and think, "if I was him, there is no way in hell I would show up to work every day. I would just sit at home and collect welfare". That's my rational thought as a self driven human. I have no idea in the world why people are keeping menial jobs.


yeah, I don't get it either but that still doesn't reflect on your argument about makers/takers and taxes.






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rsande2
LSU Fan
Member since Jan 2006
3423 posts

re: Rant on the idea and underpinnings of secession


quote:

The top statutory tax rate in 2009 was 35%; back in 1958, it was about 90%!


I have found something that I agree with Buddhavista on. I wish both the rich and low incomes would shift burden off the middle class. But the OP is correct as well, the takers are growing and outnumbering the makers.



This post was edited on 11/13 at 3:37 pm


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TheHiddenFlask
Clemson Fan
The Welsh red light district
Member since Jul 2008
16855 posts

re: Rant on the idea and underpinnings of secession


quote:

Are you saying that secession is silly and utopian but revolution is legit? Or it just me?


No, I'm saying the system needs to be fixed. Unless that counts as a revolution....






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joshnorris14
Florida Fan
Florida
Member since Jan 2009
21229 posts

re: Rant on the idea and underpinnings of secession


quote:

First off, the idea of secession is silly and utopian.


I don't think Utopian means what you think it means.






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rsande2
LSU Fan
Member since Jan 2006
3423 posts

re: Rant on the idea and underpinnings of secession


quote:

No, I'm saying the system needs to be fixed. Unless that counts as a revolution....


Flame away at me all you want but it may take that at this point, just sayin....






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TheHiddenFlask
Clemson Fan
The Welsh red light district
Member since Jul 2008
16855 posts

re: Rant on the idea and underpinnings of secession


quote:

So.....the fact that you would likely have paid more in taxes at any other point in time over the last 50 years based on your income is irrelevant? Might be a gap in the late 80s /early 90s when it would have been less but not much of a time.


I wish I was in the top bracket. This has nothing to do with top bracket. For some reason, everyone is insanely hung up on the 1%. The argument isn't about the 1% it's about the bottom 9 deciles.






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buddhavista
Member since Jul 2012
3543 posts

re: Rant on the idea and underpinnings of secession


quote:

But the OP is correct as well, the takers are growing and outnumbering the makers.


I don't dispute that, I just dispute that he is shouldering more a burden.

Romney;s comment about the 47% was directionally correct, but slightly inaccurate. Its a real issue, and we are not addressing it.






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TheHiddenFlask
Clemson Fan
The Welsh red light district
Member since Jul 2008
16855 posts

re: Rant on the idea and underpinnings of secession


quote:


All appropriation bills have to originate in the house. While non-discretionary spending doesn't have to have an appropriation bill attached to it, any growth in it must still be tied to a bill.


I can agree with you that that is the start in the political system. However, my argument is that is not the start. The start is the people who elected them. As far as the house being conservative, if their only options are to increase the debt limit or let the country default on our debt, there is no option. There needs to be a real talk about spending cuts. There also needs to be a real boost on the revenue side. Medicare, Medicaid and SS must all be heavily modified and defense needs to be cut. All the talk about other stuff is great, but without addressing those 4, it's pointless.

quote:


The problem is congress. Congress is corrupt and they have no reason to reduce spending. Either side.


Agreed. See previous comment about the people who voted them in.

quote:


yeah, I don't get it either but that still doesn't reflect on your argument about makers/takers and taxes.


My point was: the welfare system (not only welfare) is far too lucrative in this country. A few hungry bellies would do this country a whole lot of good.






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Godfather1
Army Fan
SE Louisiana
Member since Oct 2006
31655 posts

re: Rant on the idea and underpinnings of secession


quote:

There is a guy who shines shoes in my office building. Every morning I pass him and think, "if I was him, there is no way in hell I would show up to work every day. I would just sit at home and collect welfare". That's my rational thought as a self driven human. I have no idea in the world why people are keeping menial jobs.


That guy is likely doing it out of pride in himself. He could almost certainly make at least as much sitting on his ass. Character and work ethic, while rapidly dying in our society, is not completely gone just yet.






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buddhavista
Member since Jul 2012
3543 posts

re: Rant on the idea and underpinnings of secession


quote:

As far as the house being conservative, if their only options are to increase the debt limit or let the country default on our debt, there is no option

that was not the only options presented. They could have gone for a grand bargain but both sides said no thanks, we will deal with this post 2012.
quote:

There needs to be a real talk about spending cuts. There also needs to be a real boost on the revenue side. Medicare, Medicaid and SS must all be heavily modified and defense needs to be cut. All the talk about other stuff is great, but without addressing those 4, it's pointless.

I guess we agree then.
quote:

Agreed. See previous comment about the people who voted them in.

I think you over-estimate how many americans are really on the gov't teat. And how many of them vote.
quote:

My point was: the welfare system (not only welfare) is far too lucrative in this country. A few hungry bellies would do this country a whole lot of good.


If you include all types of welfare - SS, medicare, corporate, agriculture - I would agree.

With regards to SNAP/TANF, I don't think its that lucrative. Its probably better than a shitty service job but that is probably due to illegal immigration more than anything else. Get the illegals, who work for lower than market wages, and I bet many service level jobs would increase in pay.






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TheHiddenFlask
Clemson Fan
The Welsh red light district
Member since Jul 2008
16855 posts

re: Rant on the idea and underpinnings of secession


quote:



I don't think Utopian means what you think it means.


It does and I do. It was intentional.






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jonboy
LSU Fan
Member since Sep 2003
2811 posts
 Online 

re: Rant on the idea and underpinnings of secession


quote:

TheHiddenFlask


While i respect your thesis i do believe your a little off. The underpinnings of this "movement" is fear - the fear of tyranny. To many Obama represents the increasing power of the Executive branch and it's ability to intrude in our personal lives. Furthermore, his supporters perplexing unwillingness to believe Obama is fallible feeds this fear. Just so i've covered both sides of the aisle - the rapid expansion of executive power started with the Bush administration. Bush & his supporters were just as prone to the demagoguery of national security as Obama's supporters are to BHO being invincible.
Unfortunately, we are entering the era of the "strong man" in the presidency (think 3rd world types).The only solution, IMHO, is a Congress that has the balls to limit the powers of the executive and put it back in it's place. The federal government was not built, nor will it be able to sustain itself, when one branch's power far exceeds that of the other two. Until that happens, the fear of tyranny will continue to swell.



This post was edited on 11/13 at 3:56 pm


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