| Posted by | Message |
FightinTiger 
Georgia Tech Fan
wat
Member since Oct 2003
7839 posts
| Spin-off of the Secession thread... (Posted on 4/12/12 at 7:47 pm)
I believe that it was legal for the Confederate states to secede, but I think that, in hindsight and given both the progress of the nation and the effect the United States has had on the world, it's a net positive that the nation stayed together as a union.
Do you think it would have been better for the Confederate States of America to have won the war, or to have been allowed to secede, or is it better that the CSA lost?
|
| Back to top | Share on  |
HailHailtoMichigan! 
Michigan Fan
Mission Viejo, CA
Member since Mar 2012
5176 posts
| re: Spin-off of the Secession thread... (Posted on 4/12/12 at 7:51 pm to FightinTiger)
I think it was very good for capitalism that the north won. Let's face it: the south was a feudal society with absolutely no trace of personal merit or wealth through hard work.
This post was edited on 4/12 at 7:54 pm
|
| Back to top | |
tossedoff 
Mississippi St. Fan
Baton Rouge
Member since May 2009
523 posts
 Online
|
quote:
I think it was very good for capitalism that the north one. Let's face it: the south was a feudal society with absolutely no trace of personal merit or wealth through hard work.
Maybe it was good that you were the one that won...but not for grammar's sake.
|
| Back to top | |
FightinTiger
Georgia Tech Fan
wat
Member since Oct 2003
7839 posts
| re: Spin-off of the Secession thread... (Posted on 4/12/12 at 10:36 pm to tossedoff)
What?
|
| Back to top | |
TROLA 
LSU Fan
BATON ROUGE
Member since Apr 2004
5276 posts
| re: Spin-off of the Secession thread... (Posted on 4/12/12 at 10:44 pm to FightinTiger)
quote:
Do you think it would have been better for the Confederate States of America to have won the war, or to have been allowed to secede, or is it better that the CSA lost?
Absolutely believe it was best the south lost. I believe Lincoln was right in a basic sense to fight secession.. He hurt the constitution and placed new ideas of centralized power into motion but I don't believe the new south could have thrived in that era.
This post was edited on 4/12 at 10:46 pm
|
| Back to top | |
los angeles tiger
LSU Fan
1,601 miles from Tiger Stadium
Member since Oct 2003
54606 posts
| re: Spin-off of the Secession thread... (Posted on 4/12/12 at 11:41 pm to TROLA)
quote:
Absolutely believe it was best the south lost. I believe Lincoln was right in a basic sense to fight secession.. He hurt the constitution and placed new ideas of centralized power into motion but I don't believe the new south could have thrived in that era.
We don't know what might have happened and I have mixed emotions about this. Slavery is an evil that exists in many forms. Slavery in the South was horrible but it was just one of many forms of slavery.
Government forcefully taking from one to give to those that they choose is slavery as well, yet it is most popular with those that aren't contributing because they are given "free" stuff that they view they are entitled to. This slavery is dividing the nation as well and if not reversed, will lead to the collapse of the Republic.
I also find it rather peculiar that those that think slavery is abhorrent would then think states do not have the freedom to leave as they choose, in essence the powerful central government enslaving the state.
This post was edited on 4/12 at 11:47 pm
|
| Back to top | |
kingbob
LSU Fan
St. Amant, LA
Member since Nov 2010
9215 posts
Online
| re: Spin-off of the Secession thread... (Posted on 4/13/12 at 1:19 am to los angeles tiger)
One reason why the North winning was a good thing was the CSA's founding document. The CSA's Constitution was trash and created a central government that was really too weak to be stable or effective. Although I agree that the South had the right to leave and that their cause, "States' Rights", was a justifiable cause, the government they created was one that simply would never have been able to stand the test of time. It was "a shadow without substance".
|
| Back to top | |
FightinTiger
Georgia Tech Fan
wat
Member since Oct 2003
7839 posts
| re: Spin-off of the Secession thread... (Posted on 4/13/12 at 6:53 am to kingbob)
Explain what you mean about the Confederate constitution. Or link to an article, if you don't mind.
|
| Back to top | |
WildTchoupitoulas
Member since Jan 2010
11072 posts
| re: Spin-off of the Secession thread... (Posted on 4/13/12 at 7:24 am to TROLA)
quote:
He hurt the constitution and placed new ideas of centralized power into motion
No. It was the Constitution itself that placed new ideas of centralized power in the United States with the dissolution of the Articles of Confederation.
Ask yourself this, 'why did they dissolve the original confederation?'
|
| Back to top | |
Quidam65
Florida Atlantic Fan
Q Continuum
Member since Jun 2010
6886 posts
Online
| re: Spin-off of the Secession thread... (Posted on 4/13/12 at 8:14 am to FightinTiger)
I've read where if the CSA would have won, you would have ended up with three independent nations (Texas would have reverted to being a separate entity).
Also, most likely Mexico reclaims all of the American Southwest including California. In other words, no future Silicon Valley.
|
| Back to top | |
llfshoals 
Alabama Fan
Member since Nov 2010
891 posts
| re: Spin-off of the Secession thread... (Posted on 4/13/12 at 8:35 am to Quidam65)
The principle of people choosing which government they wish to be a part of?
Shocking concept isn't it.
Secession is constitutional, the constitution EXISTS because of secession.
|
| Back to top | |
VOR 
New Orleans Saints Fan
New Orleans
Member since Apr 2009
33621 posts
| re: Spin-off of the Secession thread... (Posted on 4/13/12 at 8:36 am to WildTchoupitoulas)
quote:
No. It was the Constitution itself that placed new ideas of centralized power in the United States with the dissolution of the Articles of Confederation.
I've tried in the past to point this out to the more extreme "states rights" crowd, but hey seem to ignore it. 
|
| Back to top | |
WildTchoupitoulas
Member since Jan 2010
11072 posts
| re: Spin-off of the Secession thread... (Posted on 4/13/12 at 8:42 am to VOR)
quote:
I've tried in the past to point this out to the more extreme "states rights" crowd, but hey seem to ignore it
Yeah, the level of willful ignorance on this board is astounding.
The whole states' rights motivation for the war itself flys in the face of South Carolina's statement of secession:
In the momentous step which our State has taken of dissolving its connection with the government of which we so long formed a part, it is but just that we should declare the prominent reasons which have induced our course.
Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world.
|
| Back to top | |
VOR
New Orleans Saints Fan
New Orleans
Member since Apr 2009
33621 posts
| re: Spin-off of the Secession thread... (Posted on 4/13/12 at 8:46 am to WildTchoupitoulas)
quote:
n the momentous step which our State has taken of dissolving its connection with the government of which we so long formed a part, it is but just that we should declare the prominent reasons which have induced our course.
Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world.
Kind of brings a tear to your eye and puts a lump in your throat.
|
| Back to top | |
WildTchoupitoulas
Member since Jan 2010
11072 posts
| re: Spin-off of the Secession thread... (Posted on 4/13/12 at 8:48 am to VOR)
quote:
Kind of brings a tear to your eye and puts a lump in your throat.
Yeah, like being maced.
|
| Back to top | |
TROLA
LSU Fan
BATON ROUGE
Member since Apr 2004
5276 posts
| re: Spin-off of the Secession thread... (Posted on 4/13/12 at 8:49 am to WildTchoupitoulas)
quote:
No. It was the Constitution itself that placed new ideas of centralized power in the United States with the dissolution of the Articles of Confederation.
Why do you always do the same thing...the constitution is a stand alone document. The articles were nothing but an outline of stability during war. Of course the constitution afforded more centralized power because the articles in terms of percentage were basically zero. That doesn't change the fact that the civil war formed many long lasting ideals of centralized power, ideals that at the time they felt would lead to stability in preventing another insurrection.
|
| Back to top | |
VOR
New Orleans Saints Fan
New Orleans
Member since Apr 2009
33621 posts
| re: Spin-off of the Secession thread... (Posted on 4/13/12 at 8:53 am to TROLA)
quote:
The articles were nothing but an outline of stability during war.
But there was genuine debate at the time to keep their principles in place. There was a conscious decision to create more centralized power.
quote:
That doesn't change the fact that the civil war formed many long lasting ideals of centralized power, ideals that at the time they felt would lead to stability in preventing another insurrection
No doubt that is true, but that doesn't really mean, as some would suggest, that the Constitution was somehow subverted.
|
| Back to top | |
WildTchoupitoulas
Member since Jan 2010
11072 posts
| re: Spin-off of the Secession thread... (Posted on 4/13/12 at 9:02 am to TROLA)
quote:
Why do you always do the same thing...
Because I'm consistant?
quote:
the constitution is a stand alone document.
Not how I see it, the Declaration of Independence, the Articles of Confederation as well as the Constitution are all founding documents that represent a transformation from several subject colonies, to a loose confederation of soveriegn states, to a federated, centralized government.
The Articles were dissolved precisely because they were inefficient during the War. The Founders realized they needed a more centralized form of government in order to preserve the nation.
quote:
That doesn't change the fact that the civil war formed many long lasting ideals of centralized power
I was simply responding to this:
quote:
He [Lincoln] hurt the constitution and placed new ideas of centralized power into motion
These ideas were not "new", Lincoln may have advanced them, but he didn't invent them.
Look, there's a word for several states seceding from a centralized national government forming independent soveriegn states, it's called 'Balkanization' and it rarely leads to peaceful prosperity.
quote:
...preventing another insurrection
At least we agree that it was, in fact, "insurrection".
Article I, Section 8- Powers of Congress:
To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;
|
| Back to top | |
Big12fan 
Texas Fan
Dallas
Member since Nov 2011
812 posts
| re: Spin-off of the Secession thread... (Posted on 4/13/12 at 11:15 am to WildTchoupitoulas)
I wouldn't have a problem with the South seceeding today. I even have a name recommendation: Republic of Jesus.
|
| Back to top | |
WildTchoupitoulas
Member since Jan 2010
11072 posts
| re: Spin-off of the Secession thread... (Posted on 4/13/12 at 11:44 am to Big12fan)
quote:
Republic of Jesus
I'm afraid that may be somewhat heretical considering there is no mention at all of democracy or republicanism in the Bible, only the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth.
Our Father in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
Your kingdom come.
Your will be done
On earth as it is in heaven...
Heaven ain't no republic.
|
| Back to top | |
