| Posted by | Message |
L.A.  New Orleans Saints Fan Los Angeles Member since Aug 2003 34640 posts

| Good article by Dennis Prager on why the left doesn't understand the right (Posted on 4/3/12 at 12:10 am)
quote:
Apparently, many liberals were disappointed in the administration’s performance before the Supreme Court. They felt that the government’s lawyer, Solicitor General Donald Verrilli, did not respond effectively to the challenges of some of the conservative justices. The editor of Commentary, John Podhoretz, offered an explanation on his magazine’s blog. “American liberals,” he wrote, “know their own language, but they don’t know the language of their ideological and partisan opposite numbers. ... Conservatives speak liberal, but for liberals in the United States, conservatism might as well be Esperanto.” I have argued this point for many years. In my book to be published later this month ("Still the Best Hope: Why the World Needs American Values to Triumph"), I argue that the left is a victim of its own brainwash. How could they not be? All they hear, see and read from childhood on, from elementary school through graduate school, on TV and in the movies, are leftist ideas. Yet this is not true for conservatives. One would have to grow up in a silent monastery not to be regularly exposed to liberal and leftist ideas. For 30 years, I have had leading left-wing thinkers on my radio show, and I continue to be shocked at their lack of awareness of conservative arguments. About two years ago, for example, I asked one of the most powerful Democratic members of Congress -- a major force behind every tax increase -- what tax rate he thought might be too high. He replied that he had not given it thought. I asked a leading liberal writer who maintained that all American wars since World War II had been imperialist if he thought the Korean War was also imperialistic. He replied that he didn’t know enough about that war to respond. After interviewing leftists, liberal listeners frequently ask me why I don’t invite the best liberals on to my show. The answer is that I have had some of the best liberals on my show. They just don’t tend to do well when challenged by thoughtful conservatives.
LINK
|
| Back to top | Share on  |
Something over there  Arkansas Fan Fayetteville, AR Member since Mar 2012 909 posts

| re: Good article by Dennis Prager on why the left doesn't understand the right (Posted on 4/3/12 at 12:14 am to L.A.)
This is pretty good too. LINK "Psychologist Jonathan Haidt studies the five moral values that form the basis of our political choices, whether we're left, right or center. In this eye-opening talk, he pinpoints the moral values that liberals and conservatives tend to honor most."
This post was edited on 4/3 at 12:15 am
|
| Back to top | |
Something over there  Arkansas Fan Fayetteville, AR Member since Mar 2012 909 posts

| re: Good article by Dennis Prager on why the left doesn't understand the right (Posted on 4/3/12 at 12:23 am to L.A.)
In regard to your post conservatives are also for the most part indoctrinated from birth. The vast majority of people tend to align politically or religiously with their parents and how they were raised. That is why we so often see southern states vote conservative and northern states vote liberally.
|
| Back to top | |
L.A.  New Orleans Saints Fan Los Angeles Member since Aug 2003 34640 posts

| re: Good article by Dennis Prager on why the left doesn't understand the right (Posted on 4/3/12 at 12:28 am to Something over there)
quote:
In regard to your post conservatives are also for the most part indoctrinated from birth. The vast majority of people tend to align politically or religiously with their parents and how they were raised. That is why we so often see southern states vote conservative and northern states vote liberally.
I watched some of the video you linked. I love the TED stuff btw. I am a conservative, but in everything the guy said in the video I am more like the liberals than conservatives. Every. Single. Thing. Know what that says to me? That the subject is more complicated than you, or Jonathan Haidt either realize or are admitting. `
This post was edited on 4/3 at 12:30 am
|
| Back to top | |
Doc Fenton TEAM JaCOBY Member since Feb 2007 46496 posts

| re: Good article by Dennis Prager on why the left doesn't understand the right (Posted on 4/3/12 at 12:40 am to L.A.)
From Peter Suderman of Reason, writing on Friday, March 30 ( LINK):
quote:
Liberals just aren’t as good as conservatives and libertarians at understanding how their opponents think. Haidt helped conduct research that asked respondents to fill out questionnaires about political narratives—first responding based on their own beliefs, but then responding as if trying to mimic the beliefs of their political opponents. “The results,” he writes in the May issue of Reason, “were clear and consistent.” Moderates and conservatives were the most able to think like their liberal political opponents. “Liberals,” he reports, “were the least accurate, especially those who describe themselves as ‘very liberal.’”
Hat tip to James Taranto's column in the WSJ from Monday (yesterday): LINK.
quote:
CBS's Mark Knoller tweets the following paraphrase of a related remark: "Pres Obama confident health care law willl [sic] be upheld. Says that view shared by 'a whole lot' of law profs, academics and judges." This may be the first-ever (if unwitting) presidential acknowledgment of the Taranto Principle, which holds that the liberal media work against the interests of liberal politicians by misleading them into thinking that "everybody" (or "all thinking people") sees the world the way they do. The principle was very much in evidence in the commentary late last week about the left's shocked reaction to the Supreme Court's taking the arguments against ObamaCare seriously: Rand Simberg, PJMedia.com: "Having seen the transcripts of Tuesday's hearing before the Supreme Court of the United States, I can only conclude that such a concept--testing their arguments against those of their political opponents--not only never occurred to the solicitor general or his defenders in the media, but that the very notion that their arguments had any flaws never crossed their minds." Peter Suderman, Reason.com: "What can explain liberals' widespread failure to anticipate the Court's wariness of the mandate? Research conducted by University of Virginia psychologist Jonathan Haidt suggests one possible answer: Liberals just aren't as good as conservatives and libertarians at understanding how their opponents think." John Podhoretz, New York Post: "The panicked reception in the mainstream media of the three-day Supreme Court health-care marathon is a delightful reminder of the nearly impenetrable parochialism of American liberals. They're so convinced of their own correctness--and so determined to believe conservatives are either a) corrupt, b) stupid or c) deluded--that they find themselves repeatedly astonished to discover conservatives are in fact capable of a) advancing and defending their own powerful arguments, b) effectively countering weak liberal arguments and c) exposing the soft underbelly of liberal self-satisfaction as they do so." Chris Matthews, NBC: "Were you surprised that this was even a prospect? I was totally unprepared because of the way people talked. I never heard it discussed politically as a prospect, that they actually might get his [Obama] major achievement just ripped off the books. I have a broad section of friends and colleagues and not one of them saw this coming. Not my co-workers like Rachel Maddow, Ed Schultz, and Lawrence O'Donnell. My old boss Jimmy Carter? Not one of them thought the individual mandate could be ruled as anything but constitutional. I'm flabbergasted!" (Update: This appears to be an April Fool's joke from the Media Research Center.) And the justices haven't even made a decision about ObamaCare yet. The left is shocked that the justices are so much as taking the argument seriously. The chief response seems to be to attempt to intimidate them by way of a pre-emptive smear. Thus the New York Times editorializes:
quote:
If the conservatives decide that they can sidestep the Constitution to negate Congress's choices on crucial national policies [i.e., if they decide the ObamaCare individual mandate is unconstitutional], the court's legitimacy ... will pay a very heavy price. Chief Justice Roberts has the opportunity to avoid this disastrous outcome by forging even a narrow ruling to uphold the mandate and the rest of the law. A split court striking down the act will be declaring itself virtually unfettered by the law. And if that happens along party lines, with five Republican-appointed justices supporting the challenge led by 26 Republican governors, the court will mark itself as driven by politics.
There are two wonderful ironies here. ...
|
| Back to top | |
Doc Fenton TEAM JaCOBY Member since Feb 2007 46496 posts

| re: Good article by Dennis Prager on why the left doesn't understand the right (Posted on 4/3/12 at 12:49 am to L.A.)
See also " Conflicting Moralities" from Monday, March 19, 2012, where Gary Rosen reviews Jonathan Haidt's book, The Righteous Mind: Why Good People Are Divided by Politics and Religion. I found the following part of the review particularly fascinating...
quote:
More than 130,000 subjects (as of 2011) have provided answers, which have been categorized according to the "moral foundations" that Mr. Haidt and his collaborators consider the best candidates for "universal cognitive modules"—that is, the intuitive ideas that all cultures draw upon for their ethical norms. These moral foundations fall under six broad headings: care, fairness, liberty, loyalty, authority and sanctity. What Mr. Haidt has found is that all Americans—left, right and center—are strongly (if not equally) moved by the first three moral foundations. Both liberals and conservatives "care" when they see harm, but liberals care more: They are more disturbed by suffering and violence. Conservatives are more concerned with fairness, defined as getting what you deserve. And both sides champion liberty, though they have very different notions of the likeliest oppressors. Mr. Haidt's research points to sharp divisions only with the last three moral foundations: loyalty, authority and sanctity. As he writes, "liberals are ambivalent about these foundations at best, whereas social conservatives embrace them." In these moral precincts, family, country and tradition take precedence over the individual. Mr. Haidt illustrates them with photos of a "United We Stand" license plate and a church billboard declaring "God's in charge—so shut up!" Against such images he juxtaposes a promotional offer from the left-wing Nation magazine inviting readers to become members of "Insubordi(Nation)." Mr. Haidt does not mean to suggest that American conservatives have gotten it right in their particular (and sometimes contradictory) mix of the six moral foundations. But he insists that liberals will never win the confidence of a broad cross section of Americans if they cannot develop their own vocabulary of loyalty, authority and sanctity.
This supports other things I have read which assert the idea that conservatives have different moral opinions because they consider a wider range of moral issues than liberals. Now, this doesn't necessarily make the conservatives more right. It could be that they are just making up mirages and superfluous moral issues where none should exist. (See DA's opinions on such matters.) Still, the non-mirror-image separation between traditionalist conservatives and leftist progressives seems to start making a whole a lot more sense when you consider the theory that perhaps one side (the conservatives) are seeing things that the other side doesn't even acknowledge as existing in their moral universe.
|
| Back to top | |
NavyLSUAlum  LSU Fan Portland Oregon Member since Oct 2005 347 posts

| re: Good article by Dennis Prager on why the left doesn't understand the right (Posted on 4/3/12 at 12:50 am to Doc Fenton)
I think the problem is Liberals never consider Conservative arguments because they dismiss them out of hand. They always think they are right and Conservatives are always wrong. Whenever I have made a point to a liberal they either call me crazy or say they just don't have the facts to argue with me and that they are sure I'm wrong anyway. If I concede a point(because of course Liberals do have a lot of valid points) they sit back smugly and say, see they are right.
|
| Back to top | |
Something over there  Arkansas Fan Fayetteville, AR Member since Mar 2012 909 posts

| re: Good article by Dennis Prager on why the left doesn't understand the right (Posted on 4/3/12 at 1:06 am to L.A.)
quote:
I watched some of the video you linked. I love the TED stuff btw. I am a conservative, but in everything the guy said in the video I am more like the liberals than conservatives. Every. Single. Thing. Know what that says to me? That the subject is more complicated than you, or Jonathan Haidt either realize or are admitting.
The video was concerning social values for the most part. The vast majority of republicans I associate with, especially being in college, are socially liberal but fiscally conservative. It is actually the heavy social conservatives that in my opinion give the party a bad name outside of the south.
This post was edited on 4/3 at 1:10 am
|
| Back to top | |
Tigah in the ATL  LSU Fan Atlanta Member since Feb 2005 20589 posts

| re: Good article by Dennis Prager on why the left doesn't understand the right (Posted on 4/3/12 at 1:56 am to NavyLSUAlum)
quote:
I think the problem is Liberals never consider Conservative arguments because they dismiss them out of hand. They always think they are right and Conservatives are always wrong.
you'll need somewhere other than the PT to provide evidence for this.
|
| Back to top | |
L.A.  New Orleans Saints Fan Los Angeles Member since Aug 2003 34640 posts

| re: Good article by Dennis Prager on why the left doesn't understand the right (Posted on 4/3/12 at 2:13 am to Doc Fenton)
quote:
the justices haven't even made a decision about ObamaCare yet. The left is shocked that the justices are so much as taking the argument seriously. The chief response seems to be to attempt to intimidate them by way of a pre-emptive smear.
Great article by Taranto. As for the NY Times, first the race baiting "white Hispanic" tag on Zimmerman, and now this:
quote:
If the conservatives decide that they can sidestep the Constitution to negate Congress's choices on crucial national policies [i.e., if they decide the ObamaCare individual mandate is unconstitutional], the court's legitimacy ... will pay a very heavy price. Chief Justice Roberts has the opportunity to avoid this disastrous outcome by forging even a narrow ruling to uphold the mandate and the rest of the law. A split court striking down the act will be declaring itself virtually unfettered by the law. And if that happens along party lines, with five Republican-appointed justices supporting the challenge led by 26 Republican governors, the court will mark itself as driven by politics.

|
| Back to top | |
9Fiddy  TCU Fan 19th Hole Member since Jan 2007 44723 posts

| re: Good article by Dennis Prager on why the left doesn't understand the right (Posted on 4/3/12 at 2:32 am to L.A.)
quote:
A split court striking down the act will be declaring itself virtually unfettered by the law.
I guess the reporter missed the checks and balances system day in 6th grade social studies.
|
| Back to top | |
Taxing Authority  LSU Fan Houston Member since Feb 2010 16713 posts

| re: Good article by Dennis Prager on why the left doesn't understand the right (Posted on 4/3/12 at 8:43 am to Doc Fenton)
quote:
Liberals just aren’t as good as conservatives and libertarians at understanding how their opponents think.
There was a pretty high profile case a few months back. A liberal tried the parable of "If you can articulate your enemies argument, you can attack it better". So he tried to understand and be able to articulate conservative's arguments. He ended up becoming a conservative!
|
| Back to top | |
M Le Rip Member since Mar 2012 954 posts

| re: Good article by Dennis Prager on why the left doesn't understand the right (Posted on 4/3/12 at 9:17 am to L.A.)
I love Prager. He and I agree about 95% of the time, and even if we disagree, I've always found him to be the guy in either side to be the most respectful, well-spoken, comfortable-in-his-own-skin political-minded person in the media.
|
| Back to top | |
ShortyRob  LSU Fan Savannah, GA Member since Oct 2008 23958 posts

| re: Good article by Dennis Prager on why the left doesn't understand the right (Posted on 4/3/12 at 9:48 am to M Le Rip)
I think the problem for liberals in this arena boils down to this. For liberals, almost every conservative position can be easily ascribed to some form of malice. Don't support SS? It's cause you don't care about old people eating cat food. Don't support welfare in it's current form? It's cause your racist. Don't support the right to abortion? It's cause you're a religious nut or even better, it's cause you're a man trying to "control women". I can literally think of no position I hold where I haven't heard some variation of this approach. Meanwhile, I think that for the most part, liberals believe what they believe because they genuinely think their solutions will solve the problems they see. I just think they are patently wrong about their solutions. In other words, I think both liberals and conservatives SEE many of the same problems in society but only ONE side acknowledges this fact about the other.
|
| Back to top | |
ShortyRob  LSU Fan Savannah, GA Member since Oct 2008 23958 posts

| re: Good article by Dennis Prager on why the left doesn't understand the right (Posted on 4/3/12 at 9:50 am to 9Fiddy)
quote:
A split court striking down the act will be declaring itself virtually unfettered by the law.
When did liberals suddenly become such a fan of laws passed by duly elected legislators not being overturned by courts? This is a newfound concept for them to be sure.
|
| Back to top | |
ottothewise  LSU Fan Member since Sep 2008 32094 posts

| re: Good article by Dennis Prager on why the left doesn't understand the right (Posted on 4/3/12 at 9:54 am to L.A.)
Prometheus Rising, by Dr Robert Anton Wilson explains quite well why each side cannot understand the other. its a mistake of the OP to make the claim that the right understands the left. they dont. Only a few on either side understand the values of the other side at all.
|
| Back to top | |
CptBengal  USA Fan BR Baby Member since Dec 2007 30455 posts
Online

| re: Good article by Dennis Prager on why the left doesn't understand the right (Posted on 4/3/12 at 10:12 am to ottothewise)
quote:
its a mistake of the OP to make the claim that the right understands the left. they dont.
read Doc Fenton's post...actual research says you're wrong otto...sorry.
|
| Back to top | |
Decatur  LSU Fan Member since Mar 2007 14878 posts
Online

| re: Good article by Dennis Prager on why the left doesn't understand the right (Posted on 4/3/12 at 10:35 am to Doc Fenton)
quote:
Mr. Haidt does not mean to suggest that American conservatives have gotten it right in their particular (and sometimes contradictory) mix of the six moral foundations. But he insists that liberals will never win the confidence of a broad cross section of Americans if they cannot develop their own vocabulary of loyalty, authority and sanctity.
I think this is the same argument that George Lakoff was making. I think the left has developed a better understanding of these things over the last decade.
|
| Back to top | |
EZE Tiger Fan Member since Jul 2004 22546 posts

| re: Good article by Dennis Prager on why the left doesn't understand the right (Posted on 4/3/12 at 10:53 am to CptBengal)
quote:
Fenton's post...actual research says you're wrong otto...sorry.
I don't consider myself a "true" conservative, since I'm very liberal on social matters, but I can tell you this: I worked in a profession for nearly a decade where I was surrounded by "progressives" and this article is dead on. It really is. They only associate with others like them when it comes to political discussions, etc. Anyone who is different in one area, and in my case, fiscally conservative, is automatically a "racist/homophobe/wants to kill old people/hates women, etc". Forget the fact that I agreed with them on just about everything else socially. They literally shut you out and declare you to be intellectually deficient of you don't walk lock-step with 100% of their beliefs. Not to mention they are never wrong or accountable. I was also educated by them as well, which is part of the reason why I understand them so well. I could literally complete their sentences when it came to "political discussions". It is a hubris that is displayed daily by the likes of our current President and his ilk. I love the show, actually. The president's comments yesterday regarding health care are prime example of this hubris. It is their way or the highway. No compromise. To me, it is worse than religion. I was raised in a strong Catholic environment, and I have to say liberalism was by far worse than what Catholocism wanted me to conform too. (I haven't stepped foot in a church of any kind in over a decade, nor or my kid's baptized). Just my $.02.
|
| Back to top | |
Doc Fenton TEAM JaCOBY Member since Feb 2007 46496 posts

| re: Good article by Dennis Prager on why the left doesn't understand the right (Posted on 4/3/12 at 11:00 am to EZE Tiger Fan)
quote:
part of the reason why I understand them so well.
Okay, but let me ask you this: How well do you understand Ke$ha's latest fashion statement? 
|
| Back to top | |