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Message
Looking back at Jimbo Fisher's time at LSU
Posted on 12/1/08 at 12:12 am
Posted on 12/1/08 at 12:12 am
Given these season's debacle and the recent claims that Miles continues to force his control over the offense and override Crowton, let's take a second to reassess the Jimbo Fisher years.
In all honesty, the only year I really started to question Jimbo was in 2006. Prior to that, much of the offensive issues were linked to QB issues. In 2001, we were great. 2002 was great until Mauck went down, and even then was decent under Randall. 2003 was a pretty solid year. 2004 was solid outside of the QB carousel, which I think was a big problem and maybe more Saban then Jimbo. 2005 was solid until it seemed the offense was solid.
2006 was the only year that was questionable, and I honestly think it was obvious Miles was interfering with the offense. Jimbo was not the kind of coach to force balance. He was always about taking advantage of what best fit the talent.
Is this season's offensive struggles a combination of QB issues and Miles' egotistical imposing of his system into the offense?
In all honesty, the only year I really started to question Jimbo was in 2006. Prior to that, much of the offensive issues were linked to QB issues. In 2001, we were great. 2002 was great until Mauck went down, and even then was decent under Randall. 2003 was a pretty solid year. 2004 was solid outside of the QB carousel, which I think was a big problem and maybe more Saban then Jimbo. 2005 was solid until it seemed the offense was solid.
2006 was the only year that was questionable, and I honestly think it was obvious Miles was interfering with the offense. Jimbo was not the kind of coach to force balance. He was always about taking advantage of what best fit the talent.
Is this season's offensive struggles a combination of QB issues and Miles' egotistical imposing of his system into the offense?
7
Posted on 12/1/08 at 12:15 am to GeauxBob
quote:
Is this season's offensive struggles a combination of QB issues and Miles' egotistical imposing of his system into the offense?
Yes. It's part of what drove Jimbo away, and it's what will eventually drive Crowton away before long.
This post was edited on 12/1/08 at 12:16 am
Posted on 12/1/08 at 12:18 am to KennesawTiger
I think you should add the egg against UF in '03 to your list.
Jimbo's offenses took 4-5 games every year to get airborne. Maybe Jimbo wasn't so great at developing QB's after all.
Jimbo's offenses took 4-5 games every year to get airborne. Maybe Jimbo wasn't so great at developing QB's after all.
Posted on 12/1/08 at 12:18 am to KennesawTiger
I never had a problem with Fisher. I thought he was good...and I think Crowton is good. When people bitch about the offense being too conservative or whatever, that bitching should be directed at the head coach, not the coordinator.
Posted on 12/1/08 at 12:19 am to GeauxBob
quote:
Is this season's offensive struggles a combination of QB issues and Miles' egotistical imposing of his system into the offense?
No
Posted on 12/1/08 at 12:23 am to Sammich
Didn't LSU score the most points ever in a season last year? I think it is mainly the QB issue and less possessions because of defensive struggles.
Posted on 12/1/08 at 12:32 am to GeauxBob
quote:
the recent claims that Miles continues to force his control over the offense and override Crowton,
Unsubstantiated claims.
Posted on 12/1/08 at 12:39 am to ATR
First off, its not unsubstantiated. Fisher stated this after he left LSU.
If you can't tell we aren't running Crowton's offense at all, and running pure Big 10 offense at several key points in the game, you are blind. It's not just about Les having a playcard in his hands in the 2nd half of the Arky game, but the fact the whole game plan changed from the first 2.5 quarters to the last.
Miles is notorious for this, and has had this issue even before coming to LSU and clashed with Gundy at OSU. Obviously Gundy's offenses aren't too bad without him there.
Miles wants a Big 10/old school offense with a few wrinkles added in. This season when the QBs didn't develop (which is okay if the defense was worth a shite), Miles likely panicked and decided it was Crowton's fault and played to avoid mistakes by going to his roots.
If you can't tell we aren't running Crowton's offense at all, and running pure Big 10 offense at several key points in the game, you are blind. It's not just about Les having a playcard in his hands in the 2nd half of the Arky game, but the fact the whole game plan changed from the first 2.5 quarters to the last.
Miles is notorious for this, and has had this issue even before coming to LSU and clashed with Gundy at OSU. Obviously Gundy's offenses aren't too bad without him there.
Miles wants a Big 10/old school offense with a few wrinkles added in. This season when the QBs didn't develop (which is okay if the defense was worth a shite), Miles likely panicked and decided it was Crowton's fault and played to avoid mistakes by going to his roots.
Posted on 12/1/08 at 12:47 am to GeauxBob
quote:
First off, its not unsubstantiated. Fisher stated this after he left LSU.
Fisher also claimed Saban and Bowden did the same thing. The common thread is Jimbo blaming people, not Miles actually doing it.
Posted on 12/1/08 at 12:50 am to GeauxBob
what happened with Gundy?
and by the way, after the Ole Miss loss in 01, Saban had to make Jimbo open up the offense.
and by the way, after the Ole Miss loss in 01, Saban had to make Jimbo open up the offense.
Posted on 12/1/08 at 12:50 am to GeauxBob
quote:
This season when the QBs didn't develop (which is okay if the defense was worth a shite), Miles likely panicked and decided it was Crowton's fault and played to avoid mistakes by going to his roots.
None of what you say matches what happened on the field. Miles has had the play sheet in his hands for 3 years...it's part of what every offensive head coach does - check the plays as they come in.
Crowton is on record the last few days explaining why he made certain calls in the game...the exact plays people are claiming Miles forced on him.
Also, if he were going back to his roots of running the ball in a cloud of dust fashion, our QBs wouldn't have thrown 15+ INTs in the last few games and our RBs would have more than 20 carries. Nothing you say makes sense, other than you are just pissed and looking to rabble on about things.
Posted on 12/1/08 at 12:52 am to philter
It would not shock me if Saban did that, nor Bowden, as I don't think he wanted Fisher in all honesty and that was a FSU brass hire.
The fact remains Gundy has made the same claims against Miles, and the offensive struggles have been ridiculous. I can fathom the INTs and such, but the whole offensive identity changes randomly in games and nothing matches Crowton's style ANYWHERE!
Reality is that Miles has his hands in the offense, how much is the question and is Crowton unhappy about it. I am sure he doesn't like being blamed for the defensive woes when Miles tries to defend the two buffoons on defense.
The fact remains Gundy has made the same claims against Miles, and the offensive struggles have been ridiculous. I can fathom the INTs and such, but the whole offensive identity changes randomly in games and nothing matches Crowton's style ANYWHERE!
Reality is that Miles has his hands in the offense, how much is the question and is Crowton unhappy about it. I am sure he doesn't like being blamed for the defensive woes when Miles tries to defend the two buffoons on defense.
Posted on 12/1/08 at 12:56 am to prplhze2000
Gundy claimed that Miles consistently interfered with his playcalling, overrode his calls, and basically threw out his gameplans at times mid-game.
The fact remains that Miles offensive strategies didn't work. I am not using the Arky game as my prime example. I am talking about the past 4 years as a whole. In no way am I saying Miles has to be fired or something, but reality is that he continually attacks/blames the offense for the defensive woes which is completely ridiculous.
The fact remains that Miles offensive strategies didn't work. I am not using the Arky game as my prime example. I am talking about the past 4 years as a whole. In no way am I saying Miles has to be fired or something, but reality is that he continually attacks/blames the offense for the defensive woes which is completely ridiculous.
Posted on 12/1/08 at 2:00 am to GeauxBob
I honestly dont see how someone could look at a gary crowton offense throughout his entire career and compare it to LSU's offense now and arrive at any other conclusion. Just because crowton took credit for a failed playcall doesn't mean he's not having to tailor his selections to what Miles wants. Do you really expect him to say at a press conference, "well i wanted to run so and so and such and such point in the game but les wanted to go in a different direction." No coordinator who wants to keep his job would ever say that.
This post was edited on 12/1/08 at 2:01 am
Posted on 12/1/08 at 2:06 am to GeauxBob
i wrote this a while back.i remember when fisher was calling the plays and it got conservative we blamed him. he slipped up and the word was miles was making the calls. fisher left and crowton became the oc .the plays last year were more open but this year the only time you see the wide open plays are when we are behind. once we get ahead or even we go back to the conservative play calling. i was told crowwton was known for his wide open plays so who's calling the conservative plays.it appears it's miles not the oc.
Posted on 12/1/08 at 2:18 am to dranknpurple
I see the force in examining LSU playcalling in light of each coach's general history and tendencies. That makes sense.
But the claim that LM "forces his control over the offense and override[s] Crowton" is not fully convincing. There's just not enough evidence.
I guess a telling question would be: does CG ever employ double tight ends, I-formation, runs up the middle and so forth (of his own free choice)? If he does, then it is not so easy to say simply that LM is calling the plays when we see those formations/plays.
Likewise, is it not possible (as others have already suggested) that the CG/"wide-open" playbook is not possible with the young QB's at this point? And so CG (in consultation with LM) is willingly running simpler stuff (more runs out of I-form)? {honest answer is "yes"...its possible}.
So, if possible, then, the claim that LM is over-riding CG is really not all that well established. Burden of proof is on those making the claim. And I suspect there have been occasions in which it has happened that the two men disagreed and Miles had the final say as HC. But that he does it habitually has not been demonstrated.
Its not enough just to point to actual plays on the field (or even changes within games like Friday). All we really see are actual plays-- not the hidden causes (i.e. the behind-the-scenes play caller or the intellectual rationale for the given play).
For instance: every time we see a run up the middle from I-form are we really supposed to just exclaim, "That's Miles." And ever time we see a 5 wide set we exclaim , "There's Crowton"? Really? Is it really that simple or that obvious?
(Just for the record my original post referred only to CG not Jimbo or Gundy. That may be a related topic but not in any way conclusive in the CG/LM question insofar as each coaching relation differs.)
But the claim that LM "forces his control over the offense and override[s] Crowton" is not fully convincing. There's just not enough evidence.
I guess a telling question would be: does CG ever employ double tight ends, I-formation, runs up the middle and so forth (of his own free choice)? If he does, then it is not so easy to say simply that LM is calling the plays when we see those formations/plays.
Likewise, is it not possible (as others have already suggested) that the CG/"wide-open" playbook is not possible with the young QB's at this point? And so CG (in consultation with LM) is willingly running simpler stuff (more runs out of I-form)? {honest answer is "yes"...its possible}.
So, if possible, then, the claim that LM is over-riding CG is really not all that well established. Burden of proof is on those making the claim. And I suspect there have been occasions in which it has happened that the two men disagreed and Miles had the final say as HC. But that he does it habitually has not been demonstrated.
Its not enough just to point to actual plays on the field (or even changes within games like Friday). All we really see are actual plays-- not the hidden causes (i.e. the behind-the-scenes play caller or the intellectual rationale for the given play).
For instance: every time we see a run up the middle from I-form are we really supposed to just exclaim, "That's Miles." And ever time we see a 5 wide set we exclaim , "There's Crowton"? Really? Is it really that simple or that obvious?
(Just for the record my original post referred only to CG not Jimbo or Gundy. That may be a related topic but not in any way conclusive in the CG/LM question insofar as each coaching relation differs.)
This post was edited on 12/1/08 at 3:04 am
Posted on 12/1/08 at 2:22 am to ATR
And it is another question whether "Crowton's style" is not itself evolving/changing/adaptable to situation. Granted he has a "body of work" to be looked at carefully, and worth comparing to his work at LSU. But it may be unwise to think we have this "style" locked down into 2 or 3 formations and 10-12 plays (or some unchanging 'scheme') from which he cannot ever vary without ceasing to be CG. (Same thing should be said of Miles. "Tendencies" are just that and only that.) It could well be that CG grows more conservative with time and circumstance; or that he realize some limitation in his former practice....
(or that himself Miles may be realizing that 3 yards and a cloud of dust is not the final word in offensive philosophy). Or, finally, it really could be that Miles really is constraining him-- its just disingenuous to act like is been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt.
(or that himself Miles may be realizing that 3 yards and a cloud of dust is not the final word in offensive philosophy). Or, finally, it really could be that Miles really is constraining him-- its just disingenuous to act like is been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt.
This post was edited on 12/1/08 at 3:07 am
Posted on 12/1/08 at 2:46 am to GeauxBob
quote:
reality is that he continually attacks/blames the offense for the defensive woes which is completely ridiculous.
Agreed there.
Posted on 12/1/08 at 2:53 am to tigerhack
i dont see how you can say last year was more wide open but this year we went all conservative, like it means a damn thing
Of frickin course we are more conservative this year, we dont have a damn qb
Of frickin course we are more conservative this year, we dont have a damn qb
Posted on 12/1/08 at 2:54 am to ThePoo
Your reply to tigerhack?
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