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The affect of the strategic Air War on the Eastern Front of WWII
Posted on 4/4/17 at 9:46 am
Posted on 4/4/17 at 9:46 am
One of the main debates about WWII is how the Soviets shouldered the lion's share of the fighting while the Western Allies had a far easier time over on the Western and Mediterranean Fronts. And while it's true that the Eastern Front saw ground warfare on a scale that dwarfed these fronts, there was another front where the Soviets were totally absent. That front was the strategic air war.
First, a bit of an explanation of the difference between a tactical air war and a strategic air war. A tactical air war is when small to medium sized fighters and bombers attack front line formations. For example American P-47's knocking out German Panzer's in France is tactical air war. Strategic air war though is when massive numbers of bombers penetrate deep into enemy airspace to hit targets such as industrial, communication, and command & control centers. It was in this regard that the Soviets got off easy in WWII. They simply never developed a strategic air force to speak of. Which this is quite ironic due to the fact in the 20s & 30s the Soviets lead the world in heavy bomber development.
So what affect did all this have on the Eastern Front. Well, first you've got to look at the massive expenditure in wealth, materials, and men the Americans & British put into formations such as the strategic air forces of the Americans (8th, 9th 12th, and 15th Air Forces Respectively) and Bomber Command for the British. These formations constitutes tens of thousands of men, planes, and all the bases, equipment, and supplies to keep these formations in fighting conditions. And these formations took horrible losses. In fact the American 8th Air Force suffered a higher casualty rate than any Army or Marine infantry division in WWII. Without these forces, the Soviets would have been left to try to build and supply their own strategic air forces (when they already didn't have the resources to support the Red Army or Red Air Force on their own. They had neither the trained manpower, the industrial capacity or the resources to field anything like what the Americans & British fielded. Needless to say, there is simply no way the Soviets could have built and supported such a force. Only the Western Allies could do this.
And then there is the affect of the Strategic Air War on Germany itself. Factors such as the massive number of forces and resources that were sorely needed on the Eastern Front but instead were stuck back in Germany trying to defend the Fatherland from thousands of bombers hitting Germany literally 24/7. Think of all the devastating "88"'s that were in places like Cologne, Hamburg, Dresden, and countless other German cities pointed skyward instead of on the Eastern Front pointed at Soviet tanks. Now consider the fact each one of those 88's had a crew of 8 and multiply that number but the thousands of guns they had to keep in Germany. And then there is the loss of precious fuel and resources when targets like factories, bridges, and vital rail junctions were damaged or outright destroyed. All these things vital to the German war effort had to be repaired and this took manpower, a lot of manpower. Just as the Germans had tens of thousands of vital troops tied up in Germany manning AA guns, they also had massive numbers tied up in Germany to repair (as best they could) the damage those bombers left in their wake.
So in conclusion, while it's true the Soviets did most (but certainly not all) of the fighting from a ground war standpoint, the Soviets did nothing in return to help the Western Allies in the Strategic Air War. And without winning the strategic air war, the Soviet Union would have been crushed by Nazi Germany. When you add in the fact the Western Allies kept the Red Army supplied in everything from it's trucks (without which the Red Army would have been immobilized) to grain and Spam (without which the Red Army would have starved), and factor in the hard fighting the Western Allies did in North Africa, Italy, and Western Europe, it can be argued the Western Allies role in defeating Nazi Germany was as big or even bigger than that of the Soviet Union.
Thoughts?
First, a bit of an explanation of the difference between a tactical air war and a strategic air war. A tactical air war is when small to medium sized fighters and bombers attack front line formations. For example American P-47's knocking out German Panzer's in France is tactical air war. Strategic air war though is when massive numbers of bombers penetrate deep into enemy airspace to hit targets such as industrial, communication, and command & control centers. It was in this regard that the Soviets got off easy in WWII. They simply never developed a strategic air force to speak of. Which this is quite ironic due to the fact in the 20s & 30s the Soviets lead the world in heavy bomber development.
So what affect did all this have on the Eastern Front. Well, first you've got to look at the massive expenditure in wealth, materials, and men the Americans & British put into formations such as the strategic air forces of the Americans (8th, 9th 12th, and 15th Air Forces Respectively) and Bomber Command for the British. These formations constitutes tens of thousands of men, planes, and all the bases, equipment, and supplies to keep these formations in fighting conditions. And these formations took horrible losses. In fact the American 8th Air Force suffered a higher casualty rate than any Army or Marine infantry division in WWII. Without these forces, the Soviets would have been left to try to build and supply their own strategic air forces (when they already didn't have the resources to support the Red Army or Red Air Force on their own. They had neither the trained manpower, the industrial capacity or the resources to field anything like what the Americans & British fielded. Needless to say, there is simply no way the Soviets could have built and supported such a force. Only the Western Allies could do this.
And then there is the affect of the Strategic Air War on Germany itself. Factors such as the massive number of forces and resources that were sorely needed on the Eastern Front but instead were stuck back in Germany trying to defend the Fatherland from thousands of bombers hitting Germany literally 24/7. Think of all the devastating "88"'s that were in places like Cologne, Hamburg, Dresden, and countless other German cities pointed skyward instead of on the Eastern Front pointed at Soviet tanks. Now consider the fact each one of those 88's had a crew of 8 and multiply that number but the thousands of guns they had to keep in Germany. And then there is the loss of precious fuel and resources when targets like factories, bridges, and vital rail junctions were damaged or outright destroyed. All these things vital to the German war effort had to be repaired and this took manpower, a lot of manpower. Just as the Germans had tens of thousands of vital troops tied up in Germany manning AA guns, they also had massive numbers tied up in Germany to repair (as best they could) the damage those bombers left in their wake.
So in conclusion, while it's true the Soviets did most (but certainly not all) of the fighting from a ground war standpoint, the Soviets did nothing in return to help the Western Allies in the Strategic Air War. And without winning the strategic air war, the Soviet Union would have been crushed by Nazi Germany. When you add in the fact the Western Allies kept the Red Army supplied in everything from it's trucks (without which the Red Army would have been immobilized) to grain and Spam (without which the Red Army would have starved), and factor in the hard fighting the Western Allies did in North Africa, Italy, and Western Europe, it can be argued the Western Allies role in defeating Nazi Germany was as big or even bigger than that of the Soviet Union.
Thoughts?
This post was edited on 4/4/17 at 12:31 pm
Posted on 4/4/17 at 9:49 am to Darth_Vader
Which side had the superior motorcycles?
Posted on 4/4/17 at 9:52 am to GetCocky11
How many people died?
then didnt
then didnt
Posted on 4/4/17 at 9:55 am to Darth_Vader
I believe the USSR did the lion's share if the fighting because they didn't really have a choice. They didn't have the industrial war complex to produce planes. Hell, they didn't even have enough rifles to arm every soldier. The Russians had numbers and the Russian winter to their advantage. I believe they became a bigger force to fear after Hitler's ridiculous strategy during his campaign in the USSR. Until then the Germans were on an unstoppable war path right to Moscow. Really, the Russians should have been pushed out of the war early.
Posted on 4/4/17 at 9:55 am to Darth_Vader
In 1931, Stalin said the Soviet Air Force was "50-100 years" behind the West.
Posted on 4/4/17 at 9:59 am to GetCocky11
quote:
Which side had the superior motorcycles?
Well, you judge....
America
Great Britain
Soviet Union
Germany
And
Posted on 4/4/17 at 10:04 am to Master of Sinanju
quote:
In 1931, Stalin said the Soviet Air Force was "50-100 years" behind the West.
But that's just it, in the early 30's the Soviets were the world leader in heavy bomber development. They were far ahead of the whole world in this regard with only the US being even close. But just a decade later the Soviet Strategic Air Arm was all but forgotten while the US built up a force that became the most devastating instrument of war ever devised by mankind.
Posted on 4/4/17 at 10:06 am to Darth_Vader
You make great points because it is very important to have an answer to those that might argue that the Soviet Union could have won the war all by themselves, an assertion that is quite common.
Then we move to the issue of: Which of the Allies played the most important role in defeating the enemy? I don't like this issue because it's not really provable and it is really not important. It's like those other favorite questions that have no real answer: Which Civil War General was the best? Which WW2 tank was the best? Which WW2 General was the best? These questions all smack of neophyte casual interest and knowledge not only because they are unimportant but also because an absolute answer isn't there.
Your thoughts here are very important to keep in mind when somebody asserts: The Soviets could have won the war by themselves! or The Soviets played the most important part in the war!
Which of the Allies played the most important role? Soviets? That's an interesting assertion given the fact that the Soviets were CLOSE ALLIES of Nazi Germany for the first two years of the war (almost). They were allies who jointly invaded Poland and they were close allies from August 1939 to 22 June 1941.
How about this? Great Britain played the most important role. If not for GB, the war would have stopped after France fell and Hitler offered peace to GB. Instead of accepting peace, which would have helped Hitler greatly, GB bravely kept the war going.
But I'll stick to my position that all of the Allies were needed to win and that Germany would have won if GB, USA or the Soviets were absent from the Alliance.
Then we move to the issue of: Which of the Allies played the most important role in defeating the enemy? I don't like this issue because it's not really provable and it is really not important. It's like those other favorite questions that have no real answer: Which Civil War General was the best? Which WW2 tank was the best? Which WW2 General was the best? These questions all smack of neophyte casual interest and knowledge not only because they are unimportant but also because an absolute answer isn't there.
Your thoughts here are very important to keep in mind when somebody asserts: The Soviets could have won the war by themselves! or The Soviets played the most important part in the war!
Which of the Allies played the most important role? Soviets? That's an interesting assertion given the fact that the Soviets were CLOSE ALLIES of Nazi Germany for the first two years of the war (almost). They were allies who jointly invaded Poland and they were close allies from August 1939 to 22 June 1941.
How about this? Great Britain played the most important role. If not for GB, the war would have stopped after France fell and Hitler offered peace to GB. Instead of accepting peace, which would have helped Hitler greatly, GB bravely kept the war going.
But I'll stick to my position that all of the Allies were needed to win and that Germany would have won if GB, USA or the Soviets were absent from the Alliance.
This post was edited on 4/4/17 at 10:09 am
Posted on 4/4/17 at 10:07 am to Darth_Vader
Nice write-up Darth.
If these fellas here wrote history, Russia would have been the sole reason that Germany fell and Russia just did us a favor by letting us have part of Europe.
If these fellas here wrote history, Russia would have been the sole reason that Germany fell and Russia just did us a favor by letting us have part of Europe.
Posted on 4/4/17 at 10:11 am to Darth_Vader
quote:
But that's just it, in the early 30's the Soviets were the world leader in heavy bomber development. They were far ahead of the whole world in this regard with only the US being even close. But just a decade later the Soviet Strategic Air Arm was all but forgotten while the US built up a force that became the most devastating instrument of war ever devised by mankind.
DARTH please go back to your photos and tell us the names of these kinds of motorcycles. Harley? BMW? I think that the Germans used BMW motorbikes and the USA used Harley-Davidson. British used Triumph? Tell us.
Posted on 4/4/17 at 10:13 am to Darth_Vader
Russia shouldered the brunt of the losses. Not debatable.
Now of course the allies helped.
Hell, all the circumstances helped, from General Winter to Hitler's strategic follies in Russia.
But the fact remains that had the Russians not held on and come back like a sledgehammer they may have been able to resist the Allied invasion and the Allies lose the war on the western front.
This post was edited on 4/4/17 at 10:17 am
Posted on 4/4/17 at 10:15 am to fr33manator
quote:
Russia shouldered the brunt of the losses. Not debatable.
And? Maybe they just weren't as good at tactics as the Germans or us?
They just threw body after body at the Germans... not necessarily a great way to fight a war long term.
This post was edited on 4/4/17 at 10:21 am
Posted on 4/4/17 at 10:16 am to Champagne
quote:
You make great points because it is very important to have an answer to those that might argue that the Soviet Union could have won the war all by themselves, an assertion that is quite common.
That's precisely why I made that post. Simply put, without he strategic air war the Germans would have never been defeated. And it was simply beyond the capability of the Soviets to build and support any strategic air force. Thus it was impossible for the Soviets to win the war on their own. The best they could have hoped for would be a negotiated peace when Germany was left in control of most of European Russia.
quote:
Then we move to the issue of: Which of the Allies played the most important role in defeating the enemy? I don't like this issue because it's not really provable and it is really not important. It's like those other favorite questions that have no real answer: Which Civil War General was the best? Which WW2 tank was the best? Which WW2 General was the best? These questions all smack of neophyte casual interest and knowledge not only because they are unimportant but also because an absolute answer isn't there.
Very true. We all have our favorites in these areas. But we must keep in mind things like this are purely subjective.
quote:
Your thoughts here are very important to keep in mind when somebody asserts: The Soviets could have won the war by themselves! or The Soviets played the most important part in the war!
Which of the Allies played the most important role? Soviets? That's an interesting assertion given the fact that the Soviets were CLOSE ALLIES of Nazi Germany for the first two years of the war (almost). They were allies who jointly invaded Poland and they were close allies from August 1939 to 22 June 1941.
How about this? Great Britain played the most important role. If not for GB, the war would have stopped after France fell and Hitler offered peace to GB. Instead of accepting peace, which would have helped Hitler greatly, GB bravely kept the war going.
But I'll stick to my position that all of the Allies were needed to win and that Germany would have won if GB, USA or the Soviets were absent from the Alliance.
Great point. Each played a vital role. Of the three the only one I think there could be any sort of valid argument made as being the "most important" would have to be the USA. I say this because of (1) the massive amounts of supplies, resources, and raw material the US gave to both GB & the USSR and (2) the fact the US actually fought a war on three different theaters, ETO, MTO, and PTO. But in the end, you're right. Each member of the alliance played their own vital role.
Posted on 4/4/17 at 10:19 am to fr33manator
quote:
Russia shouldered the brunt of the losses. Not debatable. Now of course the allies helped. Hell, all the circumstances helped, from General Winter to Hitler's strategic follies in Russia. But the fact remains that had the Russians not held on and come back like a sledgehammer they may have been able to resist the Allied invasion and the Allies lose the war on the western front.
Yes the Soviets bore the brunt of losses. But wars are not won by how many men you lose. The fact still stands that
1. The war was unwinnable without the strategic air campaign over Germany
and
2. The Soviets did not have the resources to conduct a strategic air campaign of any real value.
Thus, while the Soviets did play their vital role and they did suffer heavier losses than the other allies, they could not have won the war on their own, nor was their role more important than that of the Western Allies.
Posted on 4/4/17 at 10:20 am to Darth_Vader
I'm actually curious as to what would have happened if the US never entered the war against Germany. I don't think the Germans would have won. The war would have been drawn out a lot longer, but I don't think they would have had enough resources to occupy that much of Europe.
Posted on 4/4/17 at 10:22 am to DeafJam73
quote:
I don't think they would have had enough resources to occupy that much of Europe.
That was a huge, if not the main reason that they wanted to occupy much of Europe.
Posted on 4/4/17 at 10:25 am to cubsfan5150
I agree. They absorbed as much resources as possible along the way. But I still don't think they would have won out. 1) They could never take Britain. 2) Hitler was too fanatical to run that kind of campaign. His own ideology got in his way.
Posted on 4/4/17 at 10:25 am to Champagne
quote:
DARTH please go back to your photos and tell us the names of these kinds of motorcycles. Harley? BMW? I think that the Germans used BMW motorbikes and the USA used Harley-Davidson. British used Triumph? Tell us.
1. American Harley-Davidson WLA
2. British Triumph
3. Soviet IMZ-Ural motorcycle
4. German BMW R75
5. German SdKfz 2 "Kraftrad"
Posted on 4/4/17 at 10:27 am to DeafJam73
He had no desire to take Britain.
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