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re: Tesla Supercharging Network: How it started; how it's going
Posted on 5/2/23 at 12:38 pm to Korkstand
Posted on 5/2/23 at 12:38 pm to Korkstand
quote:In fairness, he did ask the poster he replied to to teach him on the subject, so it was a bit different than some of the other nonsensical posts we see.
And aren't you the guy who thought old EV batteries were worthless trash?
0
Posted on 5/2/23 at 1:07 pm to OU Guy
quote:Tesla recycles close to 100% of the old batteries that they receive as they have apparently found that to be more cost-effective or in some way better than repurposing the packs first. You can read about that here or choose to not believe it. The poster you are talking to didn't specifically state that Tesla repurposes their batteries, but it is very easy to find them on sites like ebay and many others to use for whatever you want. You can find them at the pack or module level, and I'm sure as individual cells as well.
Show me some proof of Tesla taking batteries out and being used for alternate power as you stated as fact. Give me some factual data with a link
Is that enough to prove to you that it is not prohibitively expensive to repurpose an EV battery pack? On the contrary it is a quite cost-effective way to store energy for various applications.
quote:The total that have been repurposed so far is pretty minuscule compared to how many have been built because they just last so long.
and also, what is the total so far?
To recap what we have learned about batteries in this thread:
1. "Spent" EV batteries are far from a total loss, they have quite a bit of capacity and therefore value left in them. As a consequence...
2. Essentially zero EV batteries end up in landfills. They are either recycled and nearly 100% of the material is used again, or they are repurposed with a bit of modification by knowledgeable individuals or companies to use as home or grid storage. However...
3. The secondhand EV battery market is still pretty small because they tend to last a really long time.
Posted on 5/2/23 at 1:21 pm to OU Guy
quote:
Show me some proof of Tesla taking batteries out and being used for alternate power as you stated as fact. Give me some factual data with a link and also, what is the total so far?
B2U is just one of many companies that has already successfully interconnected grid storage out of used EV batteries. Their first 25MWh project used old nissan and honda ESS units. They've built small proof of concept units with Tesla Model 3 packs but the lack of available units means it won't be a reality for quiet a while. But, it works. And it's simple. You can spend $5k on the battery, another $2k on the removal, $2k more on interconnection and still make money.
1300 recycled electric vehicle batteries used for biggest grid-scale storage system of its kind
This post was edited on 5/2/23 at 1:31 pm
Posted on 5/2/23 at 1:57 pm to billjamin
quote:
You take that degraded unit, throw it in a container and hook it up to a wind farm, or solar, or anything really and let them run balls to the wall with no curtailment and you have economic value through either the increased availability, or just the exploitation of time of use charges.
Others trying to answer wrong question.
This is what I replied to. I know they recycle by melting down existing batteries after expensive removal - but this poster claimed they take Tesla batteries out and use for wind farms and such. Makes is sound easy like unplug and out in a container and presto, you can use for windfarms lol.
At present Tesla recycles but does not reuse due to complexities. Recycle is undoing existing battery to get raw materials out and reuse. Thats not what this poster was saying.
Posted on 5/2/23 at 2:05 pm to OU Guy
quote:
This is what I replied to. I know they recycle by melting down existing batteries after expensive removal - but this poster claimed they take Tesla batteries out and use for wind farms and such. Makes is sound easy like unplug and out in a container and presto, you can use for windfarms lol.
Want to look up one post from this one?
quote:
At present Tesla recycles but does not reuse due to complexities. Recycle is undoing existing battery to get raw materials out and reuse. Thats not what this poster was saying.
Tesla isn't going to create a product that would compete with the Megapack. Independent companies are doing it.
This post was edited on 5/2/23 at 2:06 pm
Posted on 5/2/23 at 2:15 pm to OU Guy
quote:Maybe you didn't understand the answers?
Others trying to answer wrong question.
quote:First that poster did not specify Tesla batteries, you made that part up as some sort of hand-wavey "too complex and expensive" argument that doesn't hold up because Tesla changes the packs themselves anyway. Anyway yeah it's not too hard to use a Tesla pack on a wind farm if you know what you're doing.
this poster claimed they take Tesla batteries out and use for wind farms and such. Makes is sound easy like unplug and out in a container and presto, you can use for windfarms lol.
quote:NOT due to "complexities". They don't specify why they recycle instead of repurpose, but my guess is either for liability purposes or they've streamlined the process for cost savings. Whatever the reason, it's not too hard for them to do because jacklegs on youtube use old tesla packs in their DIY home battery backup systems. If they can do it I'm more than sure Elon can fricking do it.
At present Tesla recycles but does not reuse due to complexities.
quote:Either is possible and currently being done. Don't know what else you need to be said or proved.
Recycle is undoing existing battery to get raw materials out and reuse. Thats not what this poster was saying.
Posted on 5/2/23 at 2:26 pm to Korkstand
quote:
NOT due to "complexities". They don't specify why they recycle instead of repurpose, but my guess is either for liability purposes or they've streamlined the process for cost savings. Whatever the reason, it's not too hard for them to do because jacklegs on youtube use old tesla packs in their DIY home battery backup systems. If they can do it I'm more than sure Elon can fricking do it.
I doubt we ever see Tesla publicly sponsor anything like this or even participate in anyway other than selling used units to developers. For one it would compete with the Megapack. Then you get into the liability and just the fact that they're a manufacturer, not a repurpose chop shop. It'll be an aftermarket thing. The biggest question mark i have is how will the secondary marketplace develop and evolve.
Posted on 5/2/23 at 3:15 pm to Korkstand
quote:
And aren't you the guy who thought old EV batteries were worthless trash?
not quite bud.
And i'll say again that i'm not against EV's at all. I been trying to convince my wife to let me buy her a Tesla.
But they have their limitations and there's lots a fairly tales talked about them. You claiming we have the current infrastructure to handle 250M EVs is a ridiculous statement.
They without a doubt have their place in this world, and ICE vehicles aren't going anywhere anytime soon.
Posted on 5/2/23 at 3:27 pm to billjamin
quote:
It tracks pretty flat long term. You use the same equipment to focus on oil or gas and it ebbs and flows depends on the profitability. The $/kWh to oil prices relationship is undeniable. Even non petro burning units (nuke, solar, wind) require O&G products to be made, maintenance, etc. There's no free lunch, it's all interconnected. And I don't see there being any real decoupling of that anytime soon.
I guess my point is Nat Gas and Oil are not really correlated at all since shale has become a major source or nat gas rather than associated gas production from oil production, and nat gas is primarily used to generate electricity
Posted on 5/2/23 at 5:53 pm to TeddyPadillac
quote:I mean pretty much.
not quite bud.
quote:I've claimed that we have enough generation capacity to charge 250M EVs (which we do), with the qualifier that the majority of EV charging happens at night (which it presently does). That is not to say that if we were to *poof* materialize 250M EVs that it would be smooth sailing. Plenty of localized weaknesses in the grid would surely be exposed. Point is, capacity is not the issue, we certainly don't need 30% more generation capacity to support a 30% increase in consumption/production, and the multiple decades it will take to reach that level of EV adoption means we won't expose all the localized weaknesses all at once.
But they have their limitations and there's lots a fairly tales talked about them. You claiming we have the current infrastructure to handle 250M EVs is a ridiculous statement.
quote:No doubt.
ICE vehicles aren't going anywhere anytime soon.
Posted on 5/2/23 at 9:53 pm to Basura Blanco
quote:
And yes, that will take massive amounts of fossil fuels or a massive expansion of nuclear power (likely both). At no point did I (or do I) pretend that the O&G industry will not be a crucial component of that.
Where is the 30# of copper needed for each vehicle going to come from?
Posted on 5/2/23 at 10:32 pm to TJG210
quote:I believe there's about 30 lbs of copper in an ICE vehicle and maybe 200 in an EV. For comparison there's probably 500 lbs in your house and 40,000,000,000 lbs mined annually. For more comparison the world produces about 80 million vehicles per year and if every one of them was an EV that would consume 16,000,000,000 lbs of copper or 40% of all copper production.
Where is the 30# of copper needed for each vehicle going to come from?
That is obviously not ideal, but given that it will likely take 40 years before all new vehicles are EV then it seems extremely feasible to grow production by ~1% per year. Also, copper is infinitely recyclable so once an EV reaches EOL its copper (and many other materials) will be used again.
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