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Report: Pilots disobeyed orders in Black Hawk crash in Florida
Posted on 10/23/15 at 9:03 pm
Posted on 10/23/15 at 9:03 pm
LINK
quote:
The pilots of a Black Hawk military helicopter that crashed last March, killing all 11 service members aboard, had disobeyed direct orders by flying into worsening weather, according to an investigation report.
The military said in June the crash was caused when the pilots became disoriented at night off the Florida coast. The training took place as dense fog rolled in from the Gulf of Mexico.
The full report, obtained by The Associated Press late Thursday through a public records request, said the pilots were not authorized to fly in such bad weather and others failed to challenge the over confidence of the lead pilot.
quote:
According to the report, the training was supposed to take place only if cloud cover was no lower than 1,000 feet and visibility was 3 miles. Conditions were worse, with cloud cover as low at 200 feet.
Fog began to set in about 40 minutes before the helicopters took off at 8:16 p.m., according to testimony. The same service member told investigators that Griffin dismissed concerns from members on boats where the training was to take place.
Records show that the National Guard felt that Griffin was a top-notch veteran pilot fully capable of doing the training.
"No one spoke up and questioned the wisdom to conduct the mission," the report said.
This post was edited on 10/23/15 at 9:38 pm
14
Posted on 10/23/15 at 9:10 pm to sicboy
Pilots tend to be confident.
Posted on 10/23/15 at 9:11 pm to sicboy
This seems a bit unnecessary to release to the public.
Posted on 10/23/15 at 9:13 pm to sicboy
quote:
"No one spoke up and questioned the wisdom to conduct the mission," the report said.
Aaaaaand there's your problem. Not questioning perceived authority. Ask the Korean airlines how that worked out for them.
This post was edited on 10/23/15 at 9:14 pm
Posted on 10/23/15 at 9:13 pm to OysterPoBoy
I don't know. I'm sure it just makes the families of the rest of the crew angry, but what can they do?
Posted on 10/23/15 at 9:14 pm to sicboy
Amazing the Army allows chief warrant officers to fly an aircraft. Ridiculous.
Posted on 10/23/15 at 9:23 pm to nes2010
quote:Well I should hope so
Pilots tend to be confident.
Posted on 10/23/15 at 9:23 pm to mattz1122
quote:
Aaaaaand there's your problem. Not questioning perceived authority. Ask the Korean airlines how that worked out for them.
Someone's been reading Malcolm Gladwell.
Posted on 10/23/15 at 9:24 pm to sicboy
Blame the pilot who isn't here to defend himself? Shocker
Posted on 10/23/15 at 9:27 pm to Rhino5
Group think can lead to disasters whether it's the Challenger spaceship or a black hawk helicopte. The thing is, no matter how hard you train to not fall into the trap, typically nobody ever feels they are truly in one of "those" situations until it is too late. My best guess is those guys probably brushed off any feelings of uneasiness and felt confident due to their perceived veteran experienced pilot.
Posted on 10/23/15 at 9:28 pm to redneck
quote:
Blame the pilot who isn't here to defend himself? Shocker
So they should lie about their findings?
Posted on 10/23/15 at 9:28 pm to OysterPoBoy
quote:
This seems a bit unnecessary to release to the public.
Not sure of the specifics, but it came via a public records request. If that means a FOIA request, the military might not have had any choice.
Posted on 10/23/15 at 9:34 pm to redneck
Yeah, I'm no type of military expert, but there's definitely people who outrank a pilot. And they let the mission go on with 5 times lower cloud cover than the minimum.
Leadership dropped the ball. Someone should have alerted a higher ranking of the danger.
Leadership dropped the ball. Someone should have alerted a higher ranking of the danger.
Posted on 10/23/15 at 9:36 pm to redneck
quote:
Blame the pilot who isn't here to defend himself? Shocker
They're also blaming everyone else for not telling the pilot they shouldn't fly.
Posted on 10/23/15 at 9:52 pm to OysterPoBoy
It doesn't seem to me that this report reveals any great revelation about this incident. From the start, it was considered highly probable that this was a case of pilot error, with the foggy weather being a contributory factor.
The information about disobeying orders sounds bad, but I doubt he was directly ordered to not fly. More likely parameters were previously set, such as the cloud deck ceiling. Remember, two helicopters launched that night and one turned back. I always thought that the aircraft commander had final authority on go/no go decisions. Maybe one of our Army Aviation posters can clarify that point.
The information about disobeying orders sounds bad, but I doubt he was directly ordered to not fly. More likely parameters were previously set, such as the cloud deck ceiling. Remember, two helicopters launched that night and one turned back. I always thought that the aircraft commander had final authority on go/no go decisions. Maybe one of our Army Aviation posters can clarify that point.
Posted on 10/23/15 at 9:55 pm to sicboy
They should form a committee and interrogate Hillary a few times
Posted on 10/23/15 at 10:12 pm to sicboy
Overconfident pilots are a danger and sometimes produce disastrous consequences.
"The accident board stated that Bud Holland's personality significantly influenced the crash sequence. USAF personnel testified that Holland had developed a reputation as an aggressive pilot who often broke flight safety and other rules. The rule-breaking included flying below minimum clearance altitudes and exceeding bank angle limitations and climb rates."
LINK
B52 Crash
"The accident board stated that Bud Holland's personality significantly influenced the crash sequence. USAF personnel testified that Holland had developed a reputation as an aggressive pilot who often broke flight safety and other rules. The rule-breaking included flying below minimum clearance altitudes and exceeding bank angle limitations and climb rates."
LINK
B52 Crash
Posted on 10/23/15 at 10:35 pm to sicboy
Sounds like the "lead pilot" Griffin had watched too many movies, and it cost 11 people their lives.
Posted on 10/23/15 at 10:58 pm to beejon
quote:
Overconfident pilots are a danger and sometimes produce disastrous consequences.
Underconfident crew members can be dangerous too as seen in the Blackhawk crash. No one else voiced their concerns about the poor weather conditions.
Posted on 10/23/15 at 11:54 pm to sicboy
Details of this were reported in June. This isn't necessarily "new" news, but perhaps this is a more official release. The article itself does not link directly to the report.
I've received unofficial reports from the Louisiana Army National Guard aviation community about this incident. Although we were not particularly close, I knew the co-pilot 35 years and we served together as adults in the Louisiana Guard. He was confident. All pilots are confident. I did not know G. Wayne, but by all reports he was confident and capable as well.
And I never got confirmation of this, but there is a better than average chance that either G. Wayne or David flew me to safety 1 crazy night over 10 years ago.
For all practical purposes the 2 best pilots in the Louisiana Guard were in the cockpit on this particular mission. You can have that skill level and still lose people. Operating aircraft, armored vehicles, shooting firearms, etc. - these are all dangerous things our men and women in uniform do, routinely, regularly, even in peacetime, even CONUS - and we should continue to be grateful for their service because of these risks.
RIP Mojo 69.
I've received unofficial reports from the Louisiana Army National Guard aviation community about this incident. Although we were not particularly close, I knew the co-pilot 35 years and we served together as adults in the Louisiana Guard. He was confident. All pilots are confident. I did not know G. Wayne, but by all reports he was confident and capable as well.
And I never got confirmation of this, but there is a better than average chance that either G. Wayne or David flew me to safety 1 crazy night over 10 years ago.
For all practical purposes the 2 best pilots in the Louisiana Guard were in the cockpit on this particular mission. You can have that skill level and still lose people. Operating aircraft, armored vehicles, shooting firearms, etc. - these are all dangerous things our men and women in uniform do, routinely, regularly, even in peacetime, even CONUS - and we should continue to be grateful for their service because of these risks.
RIP Mojo 69.
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