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re: OT - History Baws WW2 question
Posted on 3/26/17 at 1:07 pm to thelawnwranglers
Posted on 3/26/17 at 1:07 pm to thelawnwranglers
It needs to be stressed that what really made Germany such a dominant force in 1939 and 1940 wasn't superior numbers. They did not have those. The French had the advantage there. The Germans just fully embraced maneuver warfare and air support while the French and British did not
This post was edited on 3/26/17 at 1:08 pm
1
Posted on 3/26/17 at 1:09 pm to WestCoastAg
And the Germans weren't afraid to be daring. Driving panzer divisions through the ardennes was crazy at that time.
Posted on 3/26/17 at 1:12 pm to rmnldr
That was what I was going to add. The german invasion strategy worked perfectly. They drew the BEF and a number of French divisions into Belgium after they invaded the low countries. And then out of nowhere they came crushing through the Ardennes and cut the armies into two leaving them trapped
Posted on 3/26/17 at 1:13 pm to thelawnwranglers
Many reasons.
1) Fear of a WWI repeat where Germany proved to be tactically superior costing heavy casualties among allies. Britain refused to back the French in the Rhineland remilitarization. British and French refusal to honor defense pact with the Sudetenland caused USSR-Nazi pact on Eastern Europe.
2) Free expansion. Rhineland, Austria, the Sudetenland, the rest of Czechoslovakia, and Poland during the Phony War and Soviet cooperation.
3) Small neutral countries were easy to swallow whole. The Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, Denmark, and Norway.
4) Superior tactics with modern equipment (WWI surrender removed the "burden" of old military stocks) in the combined arms Blitzkrieg attacks knocked out France quickly.
5) Their opponents were not that much! Britain never was a Continental land power and were even less after Dunkirk. The USSR was a hollow shell after socialist mismanagement combined with Stalin's butchery. Hitler was correct when he said,"You only have to kick in the door and the whole rotten structure will come crashing down." And the massive defeats early in the Eastern invasion removed millions of soldiers, tons of equipment, and untold resources from the USSR! America had almost unlimited potential military power in 1942 but no real actual power.
6) While Germany faced a two front war, it had the advantage that it controlled the continent's resources in one centralized area.
7) The Allies also faced a two front war, but had to fight globally. America had to carry the war to Japan with British and Commonwealth help. Even the USSR had to keep some force in Siberia to keep Japan honest.
In short Germany didn't have to start playing the varsity until 1943!
1) Fear of a WWI repeat where Germany proved to be tactically superior costing heavy casualties among allies. Britain refused to back the French in the Rhineland remilitarization. British and French refusal to honor defense pact with the Sudetenland caused USSR-Nazi pact on Eastern Europe.
2) Free expansion. Rhineland, Austria, the Sudetenland, the rest of Czechoslovakia, and Poland during the Phony War and Soviet cooperation.
3) Small neutral countries were easy to swallow whole. The Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, Denmark, and Norway.
4) Superior tactics with modern equipment (WWI surrender removed the "burden" of old military stocks) in the combined arms Blitzkrieg attacks knocked out France quickly.
5) Their opponents were not that much! Britain never was a Continental land power and were even less after Dunkirk. The USSR was a hollow shell after socialist mismanagement combined with Stalin's butchery. Hitler was correct when he said,"You only have to kick in the door and the whole rotten structure will come crashing down." And the massive defeats early in the Eastern invasion removed millions of soldiers, tons of equipment, and untold resources from the USSR! America had almost unlimited potential military power in 1942 but no real actual power.
6) While Germany faced a two front war, it had the advantage that it controlled the continent's resources in one centralized area.
7) The Allies also faced a two front war, but had to fight globally. America had to carry the war to Japan with British and Commonwealth help. Even the USSR had to keep some force in Siberia to keep Japan honest.
In short Germany didn't have to start playing the varsity until 1943!
Posted on 3/26/17 at 1:15 pm to Gaspergou202
quote:
(WWI surrender removed the "burden" of old military stocks)
This is a very interesting point. +1
Posted on 3/26/17 at 1:22 pm to rmnldr
quote:
The Nazis privatized
Are you saying the Nazi's privatized industries? The rate of state ownership of industries quadrupled from 1933 to 1943.
Posted on 3/26/17 at 1:25 pm to crazy4lsu
I actually said the exact opposite of what I meant 
Thanks for catching that.
Thanks for catching that.
Posted on 3/26/17 at 1:54 pm to Gaspergou202
quote:
Hitler was correct when he said,"You only have to kick in the door and the whole rotten structure will come crashing down
My only issue with your points is this.
Hitler was absolutely incorrect with this statement. He certainly kicked the door in with his push east, but much to his surprise the house absolutely did not come crashing down. Instead he kicked the hornets nest and shite got real. Realllllllll fast from that point on.
quote:
And the massive defeats early in the Eastern invasion removed millions of soldiers, tons of equipment, and untold resources from the USSR!
Massive to us. Not massive to Russia. Russia simply had to outlast. "Victory the Germans to death" those massive victories early on were the exact undoing for them in the following years. Russia had the replacements. The Germans didn't. The Russians literally would calculate the amount of rounds and rate of fire the Germans had, and how fast it took the Russians to March toward them, and simply added a few thousand men on top of the total. Just to ensure they would make it to the objective. Losses were of no issue.
quote:
Even the USSR had to keep some force in Siberia to keep Japan honest.
The second that stalin was ensured the Japanese would focus on the Americans, he instantly pulled the Siberians from that front and put them westward. Those troops were paramount in his winter offensive.
Posted on 3/26/17 at 1:54 pm to rmnldr
quote:
Germany never had the economy to sustain a prolonged war and it was one of the main reasons for their decline in the midst of the war.
The main reasons for their decline in war was fighting Russia, England, and the United States at the same time while having shite ally of Italy. Italy literally cost Germany the Russian war by starting their war with Greece. Germany would have had Moscow had they not had to reroute plans to help Italy in Greece.
quote:
This is a very simplified way of viewing it. The Nazis privatized, instituted protectionist policies, etc but the populace suffered from it. Rationing was very common in the pre-war period because Germany didn't have sufficient industry/agriculture to produce basic needs. They then started spending money they didn't have and quickly went into a period of immense deficit and debt.
No, the populace rejoiced from it. Before they were starving and prostituting themselves. I have no idea how you get that conclusion. All you have to do is look at GDP and you can see Germany shot off like a rocket leaving the other European nations in its dust. Quickly went into immense debt? That was from WWI...
Posted on 3/26/17 at 1:58 pm to fr33manator
You're right on this one. Churchill said that after the war Prussian militarism had to be completely eliminated.
Posted on 3/26/17 at 2:00 pm to zatetic
quote:
Germany would have had Moscow had they not had to reroute plans to send army group center south into the Ukraine to help take the oil fields and the grain fields with army group south.
Just to be rerouted back north towards Moscow months later
Posted on 3/26/17 at 2:02 pm to beerJeep
quote:
Hitler was absolutely incorrect with this statement. He certainly kicked the door in with his push east, but much to his surprise the house absolutely did not come crashing down. Instead he kicked the hornets nest and shite got real. Realllllllll fast from that point on.
Well it didn't help that the German soldiers were killing POWs and innocent people.
quote:
No, the populace rejoiced from it. Before they were starving and prostituting themselves. I have no idea how you get that conclusion. All you have to do is look at GDP and you can see Germany shot off like a rocket leaving the other European nations in its dust. Quickly went into immense debt? That was from WWI...
Maybe the people in the biggest cities benefitted. The same can't be said for everyone. There was still a lot of food and supply rationing due to Germany not having the fuel, agriculture, and industry to meet demands even in peacetime.
The rapid rebuilding of their military on IOUs put them back into debt and deficit. If Germany would've waited to start the war, their economy would've collapsed.
This post was edited on 3/26/17 at 2:07 pm
Posted on 3/26/17 at 2:09 pm to rmnldr
quote:
Well it didn't help that the German soldiers were killing POWs and innocent people.m
Oh it got brutal REAL quick. I mean stalin had to ask the German command to act as if the Russians had signed the Hague convention so their POWS would get humane treatment. fricking stalin, one of the most brutal men ever to live, asked to have his POWS treated better.
And then ironically, within a year declares there is no such thing as a Russian POW, only traitors and would in turn send Russian POWs to the gulogs after the war, because they surrendered
The nazis viewed the Russians as sub human and treated them as such. The Russian partisans quickly began to return the favor though.
Truly an ugly front
This post was edited on 3/26/17 at 2:14 pm
Posted on 3/26/17 at 2:22 pm to thelawnwranglers
The French strategy post WWI was to play defense; consequently, they built the Maginot line.
But their neighbor Belgium didn't follow their lead thinking Germany would see a defensive line on their common border a threat. France realized that was a problem and when war broke out they sent troops into Belgium and along with the Brits planned to take a German offensive on there along the traditional German invasion route to France.
France had no offensive plans or capabilities so when war was declared, Germany had little worry about s French/British offensive and thus planned a vigorous invasion in the Ardennnes where opposition was weak and where their new blitzkrieg could be used to drive through the French positions and trap the Allied armies in France. They did not have to worry about the French troops in the Maginot line because they were all in defensive positions,
Tactically the French could have invaded Germany from Maginot positions, but the plan was entirely defensive and they had no way to take advantage of the situation.
The German panzers easily punched through North of the Maginot and their plan worked easily despite the risks they took,
But their neighbor Belgium didn't follow their lead thinking Germany would see a defensive line on their common border a threat. France realized that was a problem and when war broke out they sent troops into Belgium and along with the Brits planned to take a German offensive on there along the traditional German invasion route to France.
France had no offensive plans or capabilities so when war was declared, Germany had little worry about s French/British offensive and thus planned a vigorous invasion in the Ardennnes where opposition was weak and where their new blitzkrieg could be used to drive through the French positions and trap the Allied armies in France. They did not have to worry about the French troops in the Maginot line because they were all in defensive positions,
Tactically the French could have invaded Germany from Maginot positions, but the plan was entirely defensive and they had no way to take advantage of the situation.
The German panzers easily punched through North of the Maginot and their plan worked easily despite the risks they took,
Posted on 3/26/17 at 2:38 pm to mauser
quote:
You're right on this one. Churchill said that after the war Prussian militarism had to be completely eliminated.
Well from the cucked way the German state is now I'd say they accomplished that mission. Muzzie scum invading their lands, taking over and raping their women and they still haven't hanged that bitch Merkel from the Brandenburg Gate.
Shameful
This post was edited on 3/26/17 at 2:39 pm
Posted on 3/26/17 at 2:45 pm to thelawnwranglers
quote:
Why were the Nazi's so ahead of the rest of Europe that they needed USA and Russia to put them down?
Neville Chamberlain. Look it up.
Posted on 3/26/17 at 3:11 pm to Rekamyah
The Germans had their noses rubbed in it after the First War. Revenge was their motivation.
Posted on 3/26/17 at 3:24 pm to beerJeep
quote:
Hitler was absolutely incorrect with this statement. He certainly kicked the door in with his push east, but much to his surprise the house absolutely did not come crashing down. Instead he kicked the hornets nest and shite got real. Realllllllll fast from that point on.
"Within a single week, German forces advanced 200 miles into Soviet territory, destroyed nearly 4,000 aircraft, and killed, captured, or wounded some 600,000 Red Army troops. By December of 1941, German troops were within sight of Moscow, and they laid siege to the city. But, when the notorious Russian winter (nicknamed "General Winter") set in, German advances came to a halt. By the end of this, one of the largest, deadliest military operations in history, Germany had suffered some 775,000 casualties. More than 800,000 Soviets had been killed, and an additional 6 million Soviet soldiers had been wounded or captured." Alan Taylor, The Atlantic, July 24, 2011. Some Soviet sources claim that even Joe Steel had an emotional breakdown during the German onslaught.
Playing historical what if has often been compared to mental masturbation. It feels good, but accomplishes nothing! But what if Mussolini hadn't gotten his dumb arse kicked in Greece. Hitler was forced to intervene in the Balkans, and had to postpone the Soviet invasion from May 15, 1941 to June 22, 1941. What could have happened with an additional 37 days of fine offensive weather? Possibly the fall of Moscow and the end of the war. It was that close!
quote:
Massive to us. Not massive to Russia. Russia simply had to outlast. "Victory the Germans to death" those massive victories early on were the exact undoing for them in the following years. Russia had the replacements. The Germans didn't.
6.8 million casualties are massive to anyone. The Soviet population was about 197 million in 1941. The American population was about 133 million at this time. Imagine if we had taken the equivalent casualties (4.6 million) in the first 6 months! The Third Reich had a population of 90 million. 775 thousand is 0.86% of Germans. 6.8 million is 3.45% of Soviet population! The Germans inflicted over 4X the comparable casualties! And a percentage of the 775k German casualties were wounded who returned to the front, and even a cripple could contribute to the war effort. 0% of the 6 million POWs returned to aid the Soviets.
"The Victory the Germans to Death" didn't start until the following year (1942) when Hitler the "military genius" (sarcasm) wasted German offensive power in attacks into the vast and non strategic Soviet lands: Stalingrad 1942-1943 and Kursk 1943.
Finally, I didn't intend to imply that the Soviets maintained massive forces in Siberia. By "some" I ment land forces to guard the frontier, naval units to protect their Pacific coast, and enough air power to back them up. Yes the vast bulk of their eastern forces were sent west to participate in the 1941-42 Winter Offensives.
Posted on 3/26/17 at 3:48 pm to Gaspergou202
quote:
Within a single week, German forces advanced 200 miles into Soviet territory, destroyed nearly 4,000 aircraft, and killed, captured, or wounded some 600,000 Red Army troops. By December of 1941, German troops were within sight of Moscow, and they laid siege to the city. But, when the notorious Russian winter (nicknamed "General Winter") set in, German advances came to a halt. By the end of this, one of the largest, deadliest military operations in history, Germany had suffered some 775,000 casualties. More than 800,000 Soviets had been killed, and an additional 6 million Soviet soldiers had been wounded or captured." Alan Taylor, The Atlantic, July 24, 2011. Some Soviet sources claim that even Joe Steel had an emotional breakdown during the German onslaught.
Yeah... They kicked the door in. But the house didn't fall. Like Hitler predicted. He was wrong. Instead he got drawn into a front where 7 of every 8 Germans wounded or killed in the war would receive their injuries.
quote:
The Third Reich had a population of 90 million. 775 thousand is 0.86% of Germans. 6.8 million is 3.45% of Soviet population! The Germans inflicted over 4X the comparable casualties!
The Soviets had the will and population to throw wave after wave into certain death. The Germans didn't. You can argue this til you're blue in the face. Doesn't change the fact that stalin would watch every single one of his citizens die before he gave in. This is something Germany never had a chance to stop.
quote:
The Victory the Germans to Death" didn't start until the following year (1942) when Hitler the "military genius" (sarcasm) wasted German offensive power in attacks into the vast and non strategic Soviet lands: Stalingrad 1942-1943 and Kursk 1943.
The start date of the war of attrition between the Soviets and the nazis was the day the Germans marched east. Hitler just didn't realize it until it was too late. Any and every war with Russia is just this. A war of attrition. And it's a war Russia can't lose. Not with a totalitarian government
Posted on 3/26/17 at 4:40 pm to WestCoastAg
quote:
And then out of nowhere they came crushing through the Ardennes and cut the armies into two leaving them trapped
The Germans had also used the Losheim Gap in the Ardennes in the Franco-Prussian war, 1914, and 1918.
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