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re: Explain why drugs and prostitution should be illegal
Posted on 3/6/15 at 12:46 pm to GeauxTigerTM
Posted on 3/6/15 at 12:46 pm to GeauxTigerTM
quote:
Why does the harm that we already know both cause not matter in terms of legalization across the board, but the harm we'd be worried might happen if we legalize everything matter so much?
Because fear =/= criminal intent. Just ask Benjamin Franklin. "He who would trade liberty for some temporary security, deserves neither security nor liberty". We do not legislate laws based on fear of how others will use their liberties. We do so based on property rights and violations. That's why making threats, blackmail, extortion, intimidation, ect are crimes, but being scary looking is not.
The issue is where laws come from. You say the "will of the people", but this is not a democracy. Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. This is about rights. My rights end where your rights begin. Where it's gray, there's a law to define the line.
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Posted on 3/6/15 at 12:48 pm to GeauxTigerTM
quote:
And again...if you're then going to take the next step and claim that it's not just annoyance but the fear of harm to others, than you'll need to address the elephant in the room that is tobacco and alcohol.
People can smoke a pack a day and drink a 6-pack and remain perfectly able to be productive members of society. Is that the case with comparable use of heroin? I honestly don't know, but I know most people think hard drugs are way worse than alcohol.
Pointing to the total harm caused by alcohol doesn't answer the question, because alcohol use is so widespread. If heroin use were as common as alcohol use, what would the world be like?
I'm not saying that's reason heroin should be illegal, because I don't think everyone who drinks would turn to heroin if it were legal. I'm saying the comparison you are making is mostly bogus, because alcohol is very different than hard drugs.
This post was edited on 3/6/15 at 12:50 pm
Posted on 3/6/15 at 12:49 pm to uway
quote:
It's fine in principle to say there's no justification for keeping a crack house off your street, but in reality, no one wants to live next to a crack house.
Then establish a homeowner's association that bars crackhouses from the neighborhood. Perhaps the city zoning commission could review the dangers associated with a crack house and deem certain aspects to be an "attractive nuisance" from a liability standpoint. There are any number of potential solutions that address the boundary of rights beyond "there aughta be a law about that"
Posted on 3/6/15 at 12:56 pm to kingbob
quote:
Then establish a homeowner's association that bars crackhouses from the neighborhood. Perhaps the city zoning commission could review the dangers associated with a crack house and deem certain aspects to be an "attractive nuisance" from a liability standpoint. There are any number of potential solutions that address the boundary of rights beyond "there aughta be a law about that"
You get a homeowners association when enough of the homeowners agree on a set of rules and then the people that move there agree to abide by them. That's a small scale version of communities and laws.
If we could just get rid of federal-level bans on this stuff, I think that would help a lot. Let smaller communities make these decisions, and I think people in general would feel better about all of it. Would also allow experimentation, so that when you wanted to legalize prostitution in your community you could point to other communities as examples of what does or doesn't happen instead of having to rely on (for most people) unconvincing principle-based freedom arguments.
Posted on 3/6/15 at 12:57 pm to uway
quote:
Do you own a home? Do you have kids that play outside of it? It's fine in principle to say there's no justification for keeping a crack house off your street, but in reality, no one wants to live next to a crack house.
I rent a house in a quiet residential neighborhood. I have no kids, but I live around some...interesting...characters. My neighbors host fraternity events on occasion in their back yard on a week night. Does it suck living next door to a frat house when they throw a big party on a Wednesday night until 2:00am when I have to be up for work at 5:00am? Sure it does. That's why there are noise ordinances.
You don't get rid of a crackhouse because of the crack, you get rid of it by targeting the other violations the property commits, more as a result of being shitty people than crack (crack just being a symptom of that).
My SO's parents live in a nice neighborhood in BR with lots of families with small kids. When someone attempted to buy the property next door in order to convert it to section 8, the neighborhood went irate. Before he could purchase the property, the neighbors lobbied the homeowner not to sell it and complained to the homeowner's association. Renting to section 8 is illegal in the charter, so the potential buyer backed out. The system works.
Posted on 3/6/15 at 1:02 pm to uway
another potential way to go after it is if the "crack house" is a location simply for drug use or is it one for drug manufacture or sales? In that case, there are zoning and licensing issues for manufacture as well as needing that home to be zoned a commercial property for selling.
Posted on 3/6/15 at 1:03 pm to uway
quote:
People can smoke a pack a day and drink a 6-pack and remain perfectly able to be productive members of society
Unless that guy who down the six pack kills some family when he gets behind the wheel...right? We ALREADY know this happens many MANY times daily. How many times do heroin addicts kill innocents? I'm not saying it's zero, btw...I'm saying that if we are going to claim we care about how these things effect the lives of EVERYONE and not just those using them, then we need to be honest when we do so. why not look at ALL substances and see where they stack up? Because, as you've said...lots of people like alcohol and tobacco, while "drugs" have been demonized.
quote:
but I know most people think hard drugs are way worse than alcohol.
Who cares? You want to start taking a poll about how much complete and total bullshite people "believe" that's completely wrong?
quote:
Pointing to the total harm caused by alcohol doesn't answer the question, because alcohol use is so widespread. If heroin use were as common as alcohol use, what would the world be like?
Why would heroin use by as widespread as alcohol? Weren't you just saying something about assumptions? Other than fear mongering, there is no reason to think that legalizing heroin is suddenly going to make people start running down to their local CVS to grab some smack.
quote:
I'm saying the comparison you are making is mostly bogus, because alcohol is very different than hard drugs.
Well...it's got a better lobby, that's for damn sure. This is what we already know about alcohol...and this is just as it relates to auto accidents, not alcohol related illnesses.
LINK
And yet...we're ok with this.
Again...I'm not arguing outlawing anything. But if you're going to suggest you care about the harm the things you want kept illegal do, then it would seem you'd need to answer for the harm already done by things you seem in favor of.
Posted on 3/6/15 at 1:06 pm to GeauxTigerTM
Exactly, it's not the alcohol that killed those kids, it's the person who willingly got behind the wheel of his car and chose to drive when he knew he was not mentally fit to do so. Driving while intoxicated is a crime. It does not matter whether that intoxication is due to allergies, drugs, or alcohol. It's a crime. Alcohol just provides a simple means for testing for it.
Posted on 3/6/15 at 1:09 pm to uway
quote:
You get a homeowners association when enough of the homeowners agree on a set of rules and then the people that move there agree to abide by them. That's a small scale version of communities and laws.
Actually, it comes about when all of the property owners enter into a consensual contractual obligation to adhere to a given set of rules as a condition for owning property in that association. There are generally clauses with penalties for failing to adhere to those bylaws as well as a provision that forces one to sell to the homeowners association if repeated offenses are egregious enough.
It is literally a group of people policing themselves through contract law, each holding the others accountable for their roles in maintaining and enforcing the contract.
Posted on 3/6/15 at 1:24 pm to USMCTiger03
quote:
2nd FWIW, I don't even know anyone who smokes pot.
Yes, yes you do. Lots of them in fact.
Posted on 3/6/15 at 1:25 pm to StangChewy
quote:
It's all based off of morals. Our country was founded on a strict set of religious morals that have slowly been fading since its birth. The governments job i.e. its police power is to promote the general welfare and the health of it's citizens. By not allowing drugs and prostitution the government believes it is protecting our society from degradation. Although some people may believe their civil liberties are being violated by not having the legal choice to partake in these matters, eventually the governments police power will overcome our civil liberties.
If you want to get high and get hookers go to North Korea. I hear it is awesome there
If this is not a troll, I feel sorry for you. You have such a misguided, warped view of our history and our social landscape.
I truly feel sorry for you.
Posted on 3/6/15 at 1:27 pm to kingbob
Never posted before on here but I'll jump in for this. I'm currently a felony prosecutor in Texas, and have also been a criminal defense attorney.
I can tell you that, no matter that actual criminal offense, probably 85% of our caseload in my office are drug related. Drug possession/delivery/manufacturing, theft, credit card abuse, forgery, etc. Addicts steal to get drugs. They do dumb things while they're on drugs - assaults, evading arrest, etc. 85% might be a conservative estimate.
If you've ever been around true addicts then you know the difficulty they have in functioning in a normal society. Weed is different - most of the weed users i've dealt with are just lazy. But addicts of the "hard" drugs - it's difficult for them to even bathe themselves, much less hold a job.
Now, some people obviously use those drugs despite them being illegal. But there are people who do not use drugs but would try them if they were not illegal. And the addictive properties of those drugs, especially meth and heroin, are too strong to allow people who think they might want to try it once to do so.
So, that is one argument for keeping drugs illegal.
I can tell you that, no matter that actual criminal offense, probably 85% of our caseload in my office are drug related. Drug possession/delivery/manufacturing, theft, credit card abuse, forgery, etc. Addicts steal to get drugs. They do dumb things while they're on drugs - assaults, evading arrest, etc. 85% might be a conservative estimate.
If you've ever been around true addicts then you know the difficulty they have in functioning in a normal society. Weed is different - most of the weed users i've dealt with are just lazy. But addicts of the "hard" drugs - it's difficult for them to even bathe themselves, much less hold a job.
Now, some people obviously use those drugs despite them being illegal. But there are people who do not use drugs but would try them if they were not illegal. And the addictive properties of those drugs, especially meth and heroin, are too strong to allow people who think they might want to try it once to do so.
So, that is one argument for keeping drugs illegal.
Posted on 3/6/15 at 1:27 pm to TheDeathValley
quote:
Have you ever seen someone on crack, heroine, PCP, LSD?
tmi
This post was edited on 3/6/15 at 1:32 pm
Posted on 3/6/15 at 1:31 pm to johnjay
quote:
Never posted before on here but I'll jump in for this. I'm currently a felony prosecutor in Texas, and have also been a criminal defense attorney.
I can tell you that, no matter that actual criminal offense, probably 85% of our caseload in my office are drug related. Drug possession/delivery/manufacturing, theft, credit card abuse, forgery, etc. Addicts steal to get drugs. They do dumb things while they're on drugs - assaults, evading arrest, etc. 85% might be a conservative estimate.
If you've ever been around true addicts then you know the difficulty they have in functioning in a normal society. Weed is different - most of the weed users i've dealt with are just lazy. But addicts of the "hard" drugs - it's difficult for them to even bathe themselves, much less hold a job.
Now, some people obviously use those drugs despite them being illegal. But there are people who do not use drugs but would try them if they were not illegal. And the addictive properties of those drugs, especially meth and heroin, are too strong to allow people who think they might want to try it once to do so.
So, that is one argument for keeping drugs illegal.
In countries with decriminalized hard drugs, the usage rates go down. Explain that.
They put more effort and money into treatment and education instead of penalization.
I'm not saying make heroin and crack legal for sale at corner markets. You continue to make it illegal to sell and illegal to manufacture. I don't think people should be thrown in prison for using it though. That is not helping anyone.
Weed is a different story. Non-addictive and not harmful. The fact its still illegal is just embarrassing.
Posted on 3/6/15 at 1:34 pm to kingbob
quote:
Exactly, it's not the alcohol that killed those kids, it's the person who willingly got behind the wheel of his car and chose to drive when he knew he was not mentally fit to do so. Driving while intoxicated is a crime. It does not matter whether that intoxication is due to allergies, drugs, or alcohol. It's a crime. Alcohol just provides a simple means for testing for it.
In my opinion things should only be a crime if they hurt other people, so simply driving intoxicated should not be a crime. That being said I think if you hurt someone while driving under the influence you should get between 2-25 years depending on their injuries, for example 2 years would be for a very minor injury like a sprained writs and 25 would be if you paralyze them with other injuries being in between, and life in prison if you kill someone.
Posted on 3/6/15 at 1:34 pm to johnjay
quote:
So, that is one argument for keeping drugs illegal.
Notice that they are still doing all of those things despite drugs being illegal. It seems like making something illegal doesn't really stop the behavior, it just forces it into a black market governed by violence rather than by regulatory agencies and torts. It seems as if you are making my point. All you are doing is treating addiction as a crime rather than a medical condition.
Posted on 3/6/15 at 1:34 pm to TheCaterpillar
I think that like most things in life, there is a middle ground here. Should drugs and prostitution be illegal? No. Should they be just wide open with no limits though? No.
Drugs like pot should be legal but well regulated (age limits, zoned for certain areas where it can be sold in stores, etc.) But on the other hand, other more "hard" drugs like heroin, crack, meth, etc. should remain illegal. They're just too destructive and society should do everything it can to limit their distribution and use.
As for prostitution, it also should be legal but regulated. Those who operate this sort of business should be required to to be licensed and meet set public health guidelines. There should also be age and zoning limits on these businesses as well.
ETA: And finally, it should be up to each individual state on what is or is not legal when it comes to drugs and/or prostitution. If the people of a state vote to legalize it, so be it. If they vote such measures down, so be it.
Drugs like pot should be legal but well regulated (age limits, zoned for certain areas where it can be sold in stores, etc.) But on the other hand, other more "hard" drugs like heroin, crack, meth, etc. should remain illegal. They're just too destructive and society should do everything it can to limit their distribution and use.
As for prostitution, it also should be legal but regulated. Those who operate this sort of business should be required to to be licensed and meet set public health guidelines. There should also be age and zoning limits on these businesses as well.
ETA: And finally, it should be up to each individual state on what is or is not legal when it comes to drugs and/or prostitution. If the people of a state vote to legalize it, so be it. If they vote such measures down, so be it.
This post was edited on 3/6/15 at 1:37 pm
Posted on 3/6/15 at 1:35 pm to TheCaterpillar
To touch on prostitution, it should 100% be legal. Legalizing it actually helps stop sex-trafficking and abuse. They can have industry standards, laws, etc. to protect them. They can go into business, *pay taxes*, and have rights.
This also is proven to work and deter organized crime, sex crime, and abuse.
This also is proven to work and deter organized crime, sex crime, and abuse.
Posted on 3/6/15 at 1:37 pm to lsu480
quote:
In my opinion things should only be a crime if they hurt other people, so simply driving intoxicated should not be a crime.
Its raising the risk factor of others exponentially and you're driving on tax payer roads.
Driving under the influence is stupid.
Posted on 3/6/15 at 1:39 pm to lsu480
quote:
In my opinion things should only be a crime if they hurt other people, so simply driving intoxicated should not be a crime. That being said I think if you hurt someone while driving under the influence you should get between 2-25 years depending on their injuries, for example 2 years would be for a very minor injury like a sprained writs and 25 would be if you paralyze them with other injuries being in between, and life in prison if you kill someone.
Mental fitness is a requirement in order to have the privilege of driving a car, an object that has all kinds of public safety concerns. Just like one must be drunk to be an airline pilot, it's a condition of employment (jk,
) Do I believe we need to reform our current DUI laws? Absolutely. I think that the breathalyzers have far too wide a margin of error and that the limit is arbitrarily set too low. I also take offense with the concept of police agents using a crime as a revenue source as it only encourages cops to enforce laws the wrong ways for the wrong reasons. They focus on earning money rather than on public safety.
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