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re: If Brock Bowers or Rome Odunze are still on the board at 14, do you take one of them?
Posted on 3/31/24 at 10:03 am to Pels_Yaz
Posted on 3/31/24 at 10:03 am to Pels_Yaz
quote:
Yes I get it every draft or prospect is different but in the end historically when these prospects play in their rookie year its really not.
Why are we so concerned over their rookie year? Like they are complete bust if they are not a stud year 1?
quote:
The draft is a gamble even the best sure things flop and to act like someone is more of a sure thing than someone else without them competing in a NFL is nothing more than a calculated guess.
Exactly right! That is why you draft the best player available instead of reaching for a player just bc it your biggest need.
2
Posted on 3/31/24 at 10:04 am to Mpd31
quote:
Why are we so concerned over their rookie year? Like they are complete bust if they are not a stud year 1?
His argument requires this b/c Carr needs help now.
Carr is not in our long-term plans, so his needs-based argument requires immediately impact.
Posted on 3/31/24 at 10:06 am to GynoSandberg
quote:
These are you historical OL the saints have selected early Jamal Brown 13th overall Charles Brown 64th overall Peat 13th overall Ruiz 24th overll Penning 19th overall (plus picks via trade up) McCoy 48th (win) Ram 32nd (win) ...... Strief 210 overall (7th rd) Jahri 108th (4th rd) Bushrod 125th (4th rd) Armstead 75th (3rd rd) Nicks 164th (5th rd) You know, just some All Pros and some of the best OL in Saints history
Oh ok so now we’re ignoring what other teams do historically in first round and just assessing how Saints have drafted OL in first round with different scouts and coaches?
When I asked about historical data I was referring to overall historical data about OL drafted in first round not specifically Saints but you would get that if you actually read not just assumed what I was asking or saying.
Posted on 3/31/24 at 10:09 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
His argument requires this b/c Carr needs help now. Carr is not in our long-term plans, so his needs-based argument requires immediately impact.
Incorrect Carr is not in YOUR long term plans unless your Mickey or DA or you can read minds.
Posted on 3/31/24 at 10:12 am to Mpd31
quote:
Exactly right! That is why you draft the best player available instead of reaching for a player just bc it your biggest need.
If its all a calculated guess and gamble like you agree, then it doesn’t matter if its a so called reach because you’re directly trying to improve your team and its biggest needs. Basically a reach(as you put it) is not as a big of a concern as it is in improving a weakness on your team.
Posted on 3/31/24 at 10:17 am to Pels_Yaz
quote:
Oh ok so now we’re ignoring what other teams do historically in first round and just assessing how Saints have drafted OL in first round with different scouts and coaches?
But you want to apply historical data from other teams', coaches, and scouts draft picksfrom years past?
Historical data means dick, it's a low intelligence play. But if you think it's important, the Saints have drafted 21 OL since the Jamal Brown draft. That's a very large sample size for the exact team you are talking about. Ignoring it would be silly if that's your argument
Posted on 3/31/24 at 10:28 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
We don't have very good TEs and have no size at WR Just because we are overpaying 3 TEs doesn't mean we have talent there.
I think there is adequate talent there. And personally if we have to compare whats important TE talent or OL talent? I don’t even think thats a question. You NEED talent on your oline. You can be successful with an average TE.
quote:
Not really, especially with the power slot position
So again this so called best TE prospect ever has been narrowed down to a power slot position TE. You’re kind of making this argument for me here that hes great only if hes used in a certain way in the offense. And once again historical data shows that these TE prospects don’t really pan out.
quote:
All positions have bust rates, even OL/DL. If you want to see this in action, look at our drafts.
Absolutely and if thats the case why does BPA matter as much as you say. I mean is it a reach for need if the player you drafted for need outperforms the prospect that was ranked higher?
Posted on 3/31/24 at 10:34 am to GynoSandberg
quote:
But you want to apply historical data from other teams', coaches, and scouts draft picksfrom years past? Historical data means dick, it's a low intelligence play. But if you think it's important, the Saints have drafted 21 OL since the Jamal Brown draft. That's a very large sample size for the exact team you are talking about. Ignoring it would be silly if that's your argument
Yeah first of all you kind of jumped into this argument. Second when you responded by stating historical data means dick and I’m low intelligence- I basically tuned you out. I appreciated the other guys even though we disagreed they acted like adults.
You post and argue like a 6th grader. Learn to argue like an adult and maybe people will take you seriously.
Posted on 3/31/24 at 10:37 am to Pels_Yaz
Here is some statistics for you. Just took the 2020 1st round tackle draft class that was supposedly stacked. Good test group considering you have four years of nfl play. That is 50 percent if I give Austin Jackson credit for breaking out.
- Andrew Thomas (Stud)
- Jedrick Wills (Trending towards bust)
- Mekhi Becton (Trending towards bust/currently FA)
- Tristan Wirfs (Stud)
- Austin Jackson (broke out in year 4/would be a bust by your standard since it wasn’t immediate impact)
- Isaiah Wilson (Bust - I think he is out of the league already)
- Andrew Thomas (Stud)
- Jedrick Wills (Trending towards bust)
- Mekhi Becton (Trending towards bust/currently FA)
- Tristan Wirfs (Stud)
- Austin Jackson (broke out in year 4/would be a bust by your standard since it wasn’t immediate impact)
- Isaiah Wilson (Bust - I think he is out of the league already)
This post was edited on 3/31/24 at 10:40 am
Posted on 3/31/24 at 10:41 am to Pels_Yaz
quote:
Incorrect Carr is not in YOUR long term plans unless your Mickey or DA or you can read minds.
Do you think Carr plays until his mid-40s?
Posted on 3/31/24 at 10:45 am to Mpd31
quote:
Here is some statistics for you. Just took the 2020 tackle draft that was supposedly stacked. Good test group considering you have four years of nfl play. That is 50 percent if I give Austin Jackson credit for breaking out.
I appreciate the data and heres the thing. In earlier posts I mentioned that first round TEs have had very minimal impact in the last 20 years. You stated I believe Pitts and Hockenson. And for WR we could do the same.
Which brings me to my point of if the gamble is there in both and I would say its more of a gamble drafting a first round TE than first round OL- then why not take the gamble to improve a very deficient if not the most talent deficient part of your team? And if your position group is not ranked as high- then try to trade down while picking up assets.
Posted on 3/31/24 at 10:46 am to Pels_Yaz
quote:
WR we have Olave and Shaheed; at TE we have Taysom, juwan and foster.
Lol
Posted on 3/31/24 at 10:49 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
Do you think Carr plays until his mid-40s?
Derek Carr is 33. Are you banking on drafting a player that ten years later is still being a productive part of your team?
Posted on 3/31/24 at 10:56 am to Pels_Yaz
quote:
Yeah first of all you kind of jumped into this argument.
I had to check, i was the fifth post in this thread and have been posting in it for days
quote:
Second when you responded by stating historical data means dick and I’m low intelligence- I basically tuned you out. I appreciated the other guys even though we disagreed they acted like adults.
Pardon me. Historical data means nothing. And I said it’s a low intelligence play, not that you’re low intelligence.
quote:
You post and argue like a 6th grader. Learn to argue like an adult and maybe people will take you seriously.
Posting relevant facts and data that refute blanket statements and opinions can make one uncomfortable. I did not intend to shut down your argument, merely trying to have a discussion. So please let’s carry on. You can address what I posted directly without trying to change the subject at hand
Posted on 3/31/24 at 10:58 am to Pels_Yaz
Same class with WRs. No tight ends taken. If you want to call jeudy bust then we are 50% (same as tackles) but that is hard to say given what he did in 2022. It is also worth mentioning that the 1st 2 picks of 2nd round were Tee and Pittman who are very good but I’m gonna stay fair and not factor those in.
Ruggs (Bust)
Jeudy (undetermined)
Lamb (stud)
Raegor (bust)
Jetts (stud)
Aiyuk (stud)
Ruggs (Bust)
Jeudy (undetermined)
Lamb (stud)
Raegor (bust)
Jetts (stud)
Aiyuk (stud)
Posted on 3/31/24 at 11:04 am to GynoSandberg
quote:
Pardon me. Historical data means nothing.
Ok this is your opinion and I would argue it does. We’ll agree to disagree- even if you think its a low intelligence play.
quote:
Posting relevant facts and data that refute blanket statements and opinions can make one uncomfortable. I did not intend to shut down your argument, merely trying to have a discussion. So please let’s carry on. You can address what I posted directly without trying to change the subject at hand
Ok you posted information about the olineman the Saints drafted (which by the way is historical data- which you yourself deemed as low intelligence play).
My argument with the other two posters was never about who the saints drafted it was concerning drafting for need vs. drafting BPA. Its basically HOW the Saints should approach the draft. Sometimes when one doesn’t read properly the arguments they tend to post statements that have nothing to do with the actual discussion.
Posted on 3/31/24 at 11:07 am to Pels_Yaz
picking at #14, the Saints should be able to land a really good player especially if there is an early run on QB's.
that's just if the Saints don't frick it all up.
The last time I actually was really satisfied with a first-round pick was back in 2017 when Lattimore was the pick. Of course, we find out later they were going to take Mahommes but KC beat them to the punch.
The Olave pick was okay but only after totally getting ripped off by the Eagles to trade up for him.
I do think that O-line is a huge issue and Carr had to leave 3 different games last season because he got hurt.
if they do go line, fine. It's the best way to build a team from the inside out in my opinion. But you wouldn't see me get pissed if the Saints took a Brian Thomas, Odunze, or especially Bowers if they were available either.
that's just if the Saints don't frick it all up.
The last time I actually was really satisfied with a first-round pick was back in 2017 when Lattimore was the pick. Of course, we find out later they were going to take Mahommes but KC beat them to the punch.
The Olave pick was okay but only after totally getting ripped off by the Eagles to trade up for him.
I do think that O-line is a huge issue and Carr had to leave 3 different games last season because he got hurt.
if they do go line, fine. It's the best way to build a team from the inside out in my opinion. But you wouldn't see me get pissed if the Saints took a Brian Thomas, Odunze, or especially Bowers if they were available either.
Posted on 3/31/24 at 11:14 am to Pels_Yaz
quote:
Ok you posted information about the olineman the Saints drafted (which by the way is historical data- which you yourself deemed as low intelligence play).
What I said
Historical data means dick, it's a low intelligence play. But if you think it's important
quote:
Sometimes when one doesn’t read properly the arguments they tend to post statements that have nothing to do with the actual discussion.
You haven’t mentioned the historical data of offensive lineman taken in the first round of the NFL draft? (You did). My whole point was you wanted to dismiss your own team’s historical draft success but were willing to accept the picks from all the other teams. Doesn’t make sense
Posted on 3/31/24 at 11:18 am to LooseCannon22282
quote:
I do think that O-line is a huge issue and Carr had to leave 3 different games last season because he got hurt. if they do go line, fine. It's the best way to build a team from the inside out in my opinion. But you wouldn't see me get pissed if the Saints took a Brian Thomas, Odunze, or especially Bowers if they were available either.
If they took those other 3 guys- thats fine but I dont agree with it. I think banking on the same oline without at least upgrading it with a first round talent is hell of a gamble to take for next season considering what we saw from Carr and the oline last year.
I mean if we’re being real we should have fired DA and tried to somehow draft a QB. But reality is thats not happening.
Posted on 3/31/24 at 11:34 am to Pels_Yaz
quote:
they took those other 3 guys- thats fine but I dont agree with it. I think banking on the same oline without at least upgrading it with a first round talent is hell of a gamble to take for next season considering what we saw from Carr and the oline last year.
This is why the saints and many teams try to take care of needs in free agency. That way you go into the draft and can draft bpa.
Luckily they have a glut of tackles that are worth the pick at 15.
Imo they need to sign peat back for insurance. You CANNOT count on Penning for anything.
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