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I guess now the real question is was it Brees or did Payton make him great
Posted on 11/30/22 at 10:01 am
Posted on 11/30/22 at 10:01 am
This reminds me a lot of the Burrow vs Joe Brady debate.
I honestly think Brees was coming into his own in 2004/2005 prior to the injury. He actually had one of his top 6 rated seasons from Passer Rating in 2004.
The reality is that Payton didn’t develop Brees and really has only been responsible in small part to Romeo’s development.
He is not as a big of a QB guru as many think. His offense definitely worked great for Brees, but in reality he has never developed anybody while Saints coach that was anything other than short term backup starter quality.
This is where I think Payton is really overrated. He’s a strong offensive coach but garbage as a QB developer.
I honestly think Brees was coming into his own in 2004/2005 prior to the injury. He actually had one of his top 6 rated seasons from Passer Rating in 2004.
The reality is that Payton didn’t develop Brees and really has only been responsible in small part to Romeo’s development.
He is not as a big of a QB guru as many think. His offense definitely worked great for Brees, but in reality he has never developed anybody while Saints coach that was anything other than short term backup starter quality.
This is where I think Payton is really overrated. He’s a strong offensive coach but garbage as a QB developer.
20
Posted on 11/30/22 at 10:10 am to Geauxgurt
The answer is they made each other great. They both were very good without each other, but became HOF with each other.
Posted on 11/30/22 at 10:16 am to Geauxgurt
All i know for certain is i'm rooting for Payton to fail in every way imaginable the rest of his fricking miserable fat career and hope his wife cheats on him with Reggie Bush.
Posted on 11/30/22 at 10:19 am to Geauxgurt
quote:
He is not as a big of a QB guru as many think. His offense definitely worked great for Brees, but in reality he has never developed anybody while Saints coach that was anything other than short term backup starter quality.
People say this but he has had Brees every year but for the last couple. Who exactly has he needed to develop?
I'd say its inconclusive at best.
But i will say this...he made chicken salad out of chicken shite with Teddy and Taysom. They won many games that they probably shouldnt have.
This post was edited on 11/30/22 at 10:20 am
Posted on 11/30/22 at 10:23 am to Geauxgurt
They were both good and could have been good alone, but together they became HOF player & candidate coach. Break it down anyway you want but that's the truth.
Brees was not much better than average before coming to NOLA, but that's not to say he couldn't have put together some Pro Bowl seasons in his prime without Payton, due to his preparation and accuracy. But Payton's scheme allowed him to elevate his game even higher
As for Payton, I don't see how anybody could really doubt him and his ability to coach and playcall for QBs. As a coordinator he did good work with an old drunk Kerry Collins, and a limited Quincy Carter. He helped make Brees who he was, and even had winning records with Teddy Bridgewater, Taysom Hill, and Jamies Winston at QB. Scheme and playcalling IMO is very underrated, and I believe if Payton was still here we'd have at least 2 more wins at this point
Brees was not much better than average before coming to NOLA, but that's not to say he couldn't have put together some Pro Bowl seasons in his prime without Payton, due to his preparation and accuracy. But Payton's scheme allowed him to elevate his game even higher
As for Payton, I don't see how anybody could really doubt him and his ability to coach and playcall for QBs. As a coordinator he did good work with an old drunk Kerry Collins, and a limited Quincy Carter. He helped make Brees who he was, and even had winning records with Teddy Bridgewater, Taysom Hill, and Jamies Winston at QB. Scheme and playcalling IMO is very underrated, and I believe if Payton was still here we'd have at least 2 more wins at this point
Posted on 11/30/22 at 10:36 am to Geauxgurt
Same story as Brady and Belichick. They are and have been good on their own, but the combination of them was lethal. One of the best offensive duos ever and HoF caliber is the Payton/Brees combo. Neither would have been AS good without the other.
Posted on 11/30/22 at 10:40 am to Geauxgurt
They were a great combination and complimented each other but the more indispensable piece of the puzzle is the quarterback. Ask Bill Belichick after giving him some truth serum.
Posted on 11/30/22 at 10:50 am to Doug_H
quote:
Scheme and playcalling IMO is very underrated, and I believe if Payton was still here we'd have at least 2 more wins at this point
I think this is more about who Payton is than some QB guru. He knows how to call plays for a player's strengths and avoid their weaknesses. All those games where we were having to start Teddy, Taysom, Jameis, Trevor.... it was a different game plan than when Brees was under center. There are a lot of HC/OC out there that have a system and make the player fit into their scheme.
IMO, this is where Pete is failing, he doesn't know how to adjust to the strengths and away from the weaknesses (he also sucks at in-game adjustments).
Posted on 11/30/22 at 10:55 am to Chad504boy
quote:
All i know for certain is i'm rooting for Payton to fail in every way imaginable the rest of his fricking miserable fat career and hope his wife cheats on him with Reggie Bush.
Perfectly stated.
Posted on 11/30/22 at 11:43 am to Chad504boy
quote:
All i know for certain is i'm rooting for Payton to fail in every way imaginable the rest of his fricking miserable fat career and hope his wife cheats on him with Drew Brees.
Posted on 11/30/22 at 11:46 am to Geauxgurt
why does it have to be one or the other with people?
Posted on 11/30/22 at 11:47 am to Chad504boy
quote:
All i know for certain is i'm rooting for Payton to fail in every way imaginable the rest of his fricking miserable fat career and hope his wife cheats on him with Reggie Bush.
Harsh, but acceptable.
Posted on 11/30/22 at 12:09 pm to Geauxgurt
I don't see a debate. A great coach and a greater player worked well together.
Posted on 11/30/22 at 12:34 pm to Geauxgurt
A very good or great QB becomes a great or all-time great QB in the right scheme. A good or great coach, particularly offensive-minded coaches, becomes a great or all-time great coach with the right QB.
Each may have been very good on their own, even great. But they were almost tailor made for each other.
Each may have been very good on their own, even great. But they were almost tailor made for each other.
Posted on 11/30/22 at 12:49 pm to Doug_H
quote:
Scheme and playcalling IMO is very underrated
When people say “QB guru” and “develop a QB”, they mean scheme and play calling but just don’t know it
You cannot call CSP a great playcaller/schemer/game planner etc and in the same breath say he couldn’t develop QBs. They are one and the same!
Brees went from league average QB to rewriting the NFL record books under Payton. It’s hard to even quantify how much better he was here than in SD.
Posted on 11/30/22 at 12:52 pm to Geauxgurt
Both are great but I would give edge to Brees.
When Brees retired Payton was barely over .500
When Brees retired Payton was barely over .500
Posted on 11/30/22 at 1:09 pm to BengalShark
quote:
When Brees retired Payton was barely over .500
He went 18-4 with Teddy, Taysom and Winston.
0-5 with Siemian and Ian Book.
As long as you’re honest with yourself ..
Posted on 11/30/22 at 1:12 pm to BengalShark
quote:
When Brees retired Payton was barely over .500
I feel like some context is needed for this though.
His last year they played 4 Qbs. 1 of which had to be played when half the team was out because of protocols and the league wouldnt reschedule.
You'd be hard pressed to find many coaches that would do well in that scenario.
Posted on 11/30/22 at 1:15 pm to GynoSandberg
quote:
As long as you’re honest with yourself ..
And they arent. People are creating a narrative about the guy because they hate how he left.
I remember many people saying it was probably one of his better coaching jobs that season given what he was working with.
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