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Started By
Message
Can someone explain this offense to me?
Posted on 11/1/15 at 8:20 am
Posted on 11/1/15 at 8:20 am
I get the pace part and like them pushing it up rather than walking it up and almost getting 8 second violations. But I don't like what I'm seeing of the space part. All of the play set up is happening on the perimeter. All of the picks are being set from the college 3 line or higher. When it works well enough to spring somebody they have a great attack path to the basket, so maybe if Tyreke were healthy he'd be averaging 30 and we'd all think Gentry was a genius, but I just rewatched the 2nd half and I saw a lot more plays giving results I'd like to never see again than thinking "we're really close to being good".
If Gentry's "space" is based on the Oopty Oop formation and having everybody on the perimeter, I don't like it as a primary formation. The result most of the time was a guard taking a contested pull up or runner. AD's best skill is he's an inhuman finisher in traffic and you're keeping him away from the basket? This is what everyone's been complaining about, they just didn't know how to explain it. We don't want AD forcing post shots, but he doesn't belong 20 feet and higher the entire game either.
I think Tyreke might go nuts in this system, and Ryno seems to be getting some good shots and attack paths with it, but the Oopty Oop should be one formation in the playbook, not something you run every single time.
If Gentry's "space" is based on the Oopty Oop formation and having everybody on the perimeter, I don't like it as a primary formation. The result most of the time was a guard taking a contested pull up or runner. AD's best skill is he's an inhuman finisher in traffic and you're keeping him away from the basket? This is what everyone's been complaining about, they just didn't know how to explain it. We don't want AD forcing post shots, but he doesn't belong 20 feet and higher the entire game either.
I think Tyreke might go nuts in this system, and Ryno seems to be getting some good shots and attack paths with it, but the Oopty Oop should be one formation in the playbook, not something you run every single time.
8
Posted on 11/1/15 at 8:48 am to TigerinATL
System is predicated in super quick ball movement. Almost like a no dribble drill in practice. Works best with capable guards. The system is extremely limited with players like ish smith and toney douglas running the point. We are seeing a some what modified system due to the injuries.
Posted on 11/1/15 at 8:59 am to TigerinATL
Pels scored 120 against a great D. Also, Jrue is playing more. Defense looks like a bigger issue. No more excuses for the Pels in their next game. Gotta play well against ORL.
ETA that I agree with you re AD. Would like to see him a bit closer to the rim...
ETA that I agree with you re AD. Would like to see him a bit closer to the rim...
This post was edited on 11/1/15 at 9:22 am
Posted on 11/1/15 at 9:08 am to Solo
quote:
Pels scored 120 against a great D.
I know you're not one, but that sounds like a sunshine pumper answer rather than a real answer. Yes we've got 15th men playing heavy minutes at PG, but even with Jrue running the offense, as best as I can tell the plan is to get the lead guard an opportunity to beat his man 1 on 1.
quote:
Defense looks like a bigger issue.
The effort was there last night, they just got beat by a superior opponent. Portland is the game you hold up and say bad defense, but that also was pathetic effort. You're right, Orlando is a game where they need to put it all together or risk things spiraling out of control.
Posted on 11/1/15 at 9:11 am to TigerinATL
The offense looks less complicated than the one I run in pickup games at the local Y
Posted on 11/1/15 at 9:40 am to TigerinATL
quote:
When it works well enough to spring somebody they have a great attack path to the basket, so maybe if Tyreke were healthy he'd be averaging 30
this is the problem
this system is heavily pg dependent and we have jack, shite, and a 50% jrue out there
if we could have lucked into acquiring a ramon sessions (pnr ace) this offseason, we'd be humming, but couldn't, so we're not
the fact that we don't have a point guard completely destroys any offensive system that we theoretically have
Posted on 11/1/15 at 9:43 am to SlowFlowPro
So why hire gentry knowing full well guard would be an issue
Posted on 11/1/15 at 9:50 am to quail man
Because Tyreke is usually always healthy and I can't remember Norris having much of an injury history. Jrue looks really good so far too.
Posted on 11/1/15 at 9:51 am to TigerinATL
quote:
I get the pace part and like them pushing it up rather than walking it up and almost getting 8 second violations. But I don't like what I'm seeing of the space part. All of the play set up is happening on the perimeter. All of the picks are being set from the college 3 line or higher. When it works well enough to spring somebody they have a great attack path to the basket, so maybe if Tyreke were healthy he'd be averaging 30 and we'd all think Gentry was a genius, but I just rewatched the 2nd half and I saw a lot more plays giving results I'd like to never see again than thinking "we're really close to being good".
If Gentry's "space" is based on the Oopty Oop formation and having everybody on the perimeter, I don't like it as a primary formation. The result most of the time was a guard taking a contested pull up or runner. AD's best skill is he's an inhuman finisher in traffic and you're keeping him away from the basket? This is what everyone's been complaining about, they just didn't know how to explain it. We don't want AD forcing post shots, but he doesn't belong 20 feet and higher the entire game either.
I think Tyreke might go nuts in this system, and Ryno seems to be getting some good shots and attack paths with it, but the Oopty Oop should be one formation in the playbook, not something you run every single time.
I should get you to repost my comment from the other thread and see if people will discuss it rationally.
Posted on 11/1/15 at 9:59 am to Jester
Again, AD is setting up consistently too far away from the basket. Having your best player out of position is not a recipe for success
Posted on 11/1/15 at 10:04 am to TigerinATL
Not trying to sunshine pump but the offense looked outstanding last night with Jrue in there. Unlike Douglas and Smith he can create his own shot which is a must in Gentry's offense. When Tyreke and Cole come back and when Asik is closer to 100% (he was barely getting off the floor last night) I expect things to change.
D is a different story but so far we have only played guard dominant offenses. Douglas played pretty tight D on Curry but it's not his fault the guy has a horseshoe up his arse.
D is a different story but so far we have only played guard dominant offenses. Douglas played pretty tight D on Curry but it's not his fault the guy has a horseshoe up his arse.
Posted on 11/1/15 at 10:27 am to lsu31always
quote:
Works best with capable guards. The system is extremely limited with players like ish smith and toney douglas running the point.
You forgot to mention Jrue Holiday in this statement. If Smith had more of an offensive game, then he would probably be the starting point guard be it that he is quick up and down the court already.
This offense works, like you said, with super quick ball movement. That is none of the current guards on the roster. I reserve judgment on Norris Cole until he gets back. I actually think he will thrive in this style of play.
Posted on 11/1/15 at 10:30 am to pleading the fifth
quote:
Not trying to sunshine pump but the offense looked outstanding last night with Jrue in there.
What specifically did you like about it? Yes the offense is productive when Jrue is on the court, 107.5 ORtg with Holiday on the court vs 90.7 off, but I still saw a bunch of 1 on 1, and with everybody being told to stay on the perimeter there's only so much off ball movement that can happen. The reason I started this thread is because I don't see much that I like about the offense so far.
Also, I think you're selling Toney Douglas short. He was more efficient than Jrue (17 pts on 12 shots vs 22 on 19) and was pretty close on assists, 4 in 23 minutes vs 6 in 27. One of the things I didn't like is that even when setting a high pick, AD would rarely roll to the basket, again it looks like the plan is to get the lead guard 1 on 1 on the move. When are they going to add the plays that made Amare an MVP candidate?
This post was edited on 11/1/15 at 10:33 am
Posted on 11/1/15 at 10:41 am to quail man
quote:
So why hire gentry knowing full well guard would be an issue
well we lacked a crystal ball re: tyreke's injury/surgery right before the season started
in 2 months, assuming nothing goes wrong (and with our luck, meh) we'll have 100% jrue, 100% tyreke, and 100% cole at the point. we'll have an abundance of riches at the position and cole probably won't even get to play that much
Posted on 11/1/15 at 10:43 am to SlowFlowPro
I get how this offense will play well to the skill set of a 100% Tyreke and Jrue, but what does it do for AD? I know it's supposed to be good for him because Amare, but I didn't really watch those Phoenix teams and AD looks like a complete afterthought in the system when he isn't shooting 3s.
Posted on 11/1/15 at 10:44 am to TigerinATL
quote:
One of the things I didn't like is that even when setting a high pick, AD would rarely roll to the basket, again it looks like the plan is to get the lead guard 1 on 1 on the move. When are they going to add the plays that made Amare an MVP candidate?
i think a large part of this is defensive choices
you have to choose if you're going to exert more on the ballhandler or the pick. so far defenses are allowing our mash unit at pg the opportunities to beat them and taking AD out of his game. when we have point guards who will make them pay, the D will open up for AD. this was going to happen regardless of the system with the vomit we're throwing out there at point right now
Posted on 11/1/15 at 10:52 am to SlowFlowPro
and let me add that AD has been great the past 2 games with a terrible game in game 1
stats the past 2 games
25.5 ppg
12.5 rpg
2.0 apg
2.0 bpg
1.0 spg
2.0 3Pg
2.5 TOg
52.9% FG (18/34)
57.1% 3PT (4/7)
73.3% FT (11/15...coming around)
stats the past 2 games
25.5 ppg
12.5 rpg
2.0 apg
2.0 bpg
1.0 spg
2.0 3Pg
2.5 TOg
52.9% FG (18/34)
57.1% 3PT (4/7)
73.3% FT (11/15...coming around)
Posted on 11/1/15 at 11:11 am to SlowFlowPro
His stats look great, but he hasn't been great. I know that sounds weird but it is true.
AD looked like garbage last night and he put up great stats.
AD looked like garbage last night and he put up great stats.
Posted on 11/1/15 at 11:28 am to Fun Bunch
His stats look great because he's getting to the line a lot, 9/11 last night, but it seemed like a lot of those fouls were bad defense/favorable calls rather than AD getting a defender on his heels and forcing him to foul. At least 2 of the FT attempts were technicals, maybe even a 3rd. He got fouled on a 3 because of bad defense IIRC, so that right there is about half of his 11 FT attempts.
It's not like he's Westbrook or Harden and their style of play leads to FTs that turn their stats from team killing chucker to team leading superstar. I mean he got FTs because of playing aggressive last year, but this system with this personnel is not giving him those looks. He actually got more calls than I expected last night off ball, because GS sure likes getting physical with him when he's not in the play.
It's not like he's Westbrook or Harden and their style of play leads to FTs that turn their stats from team killing chucker to team leading superstar. I mean he got FTs because of playing aggressive last year, but this system with this personnel is not giving him those looks. He actually got more calls than I expected last night off ball, because GS sure likes getting physical with him when he's not in the play.
Posted on 11/1/15 at 11:35 am to TigerinATL
It just looks like a constant struggle out there for him. It's not smooth. He's playing far away from the basket and it's just not looking good.
On the flip side, when are teams going to start roughing up Curry? They need knock him down, hold, rough him up. Make him work on the defensive side. It still might not work but that's the only way I see to be effective at all.
On the flip side, when are teams going to start roughing up Curry? They need knock him down, hold, rough him up. Make him work on the defensive side. It still might not work but that's the only way I see to be effective at all.
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