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re: San Junipero - is it Elysium or Gehenna? (SPOILERS)
Posted on 12/2/16 at 8:50 am to mizzoukills
Posted on 12/2/16 at 8:50 am to mizzoukills
quote:
Heaven cannot exist if "tourists" retain past memories and human emotions. It may be sold as Heaven but it will eventually become Hell for all tourists because there's no spiritual connection.
This is what's fascinating about this episode. The human creators of this program may actually believe they've created Heaven in a microchip, but that's impossible because humans cannot create a spiritual realm. Humans can only create something that is "human".
You're trying too hard to interject spiritual ideas into this.
quote:
And that's the magic trick the creators of the episode performed on the audience. They make you believe it's about grief. They make you believe it has a happy ending. The episode is really a simulated version of the Divine Comedy. It 100 percent is about religion, faith, and the rejection of a spiritual existence.
Oh...
carry on
0
Posted on 12/2/16 at 8:52 am to mizzoukills
quote:
San Junipero is Hell
Sigh.
If you want to reach you can say it's hell in a Biblical sense that it's eternal separation from God, and you'd have a point there. But overlooking that and just taking at face value, not it's not hell. It's a place that someone willingly and intentionally decides to go to enjoy their afterlife in peace and happiness. There is absolutely zero peace or happiness in hell.
Posted on 12/2/16 at 9:03 am to WG_Dawg
quote:
It's a place that someone willingly and intentionally decides to go to enjoy their afterlife in peace and happiness
If San Junipero is a place where someone goes to experience eternal peace and happiness, why were Kelly and Yorkie not at peace in San Junipero?
Like I said in the OP, Yorkie experienced sexual confusion, lust, jealousy, longing, and anger. Kelly experienced all of those emotions and more because while in San Junipero she still remembered her actual life which means she also experienced immense grief and sadness which lead her to suicidal thoughts.
Heaven is not a place where someone would experience any of these emotions, let alone contemplate suicide.
quote:
There is absolutely zero peace or happiness in hell.
Many think Hell isn't fire and brimstone and lakes of fire. Many believe Hell is an eternal reminder of regret, grief, sadness, and confusion. Hell is when someone is locked in the prison of the human mind. Hell is the illusion of happiness with a constant undercurrent that something is amiss.
This post was edited on 12/2/16 at 9:07 am
Posted on 12/2/16 at 9:07 am to mizzoukills
Great episode, great questions. Let's do this.
It's the residents of San Junipero trying to feel something again. They have been so anesthesthitized to the experience that they are seeking out pain to be inflicted because it is at least feeling. Yes, the Quagmire is designed to be spiritual suffering, but I'd argue that makes it Purgatory, not Hell. The demons eat at your sins, causing you pain, but eventually your sin is gone and you can ascend, unburdened into heaven.
These are the people who have not let go of their earthly lives yet. Until they accept that they are dead, and this condition is permanent and there's no going back, then they will continue to suffer. But I'd argue it's a good suffering, as they are unburdening themselves of their past life. Also, it comes down to the old adage: Hell is what you make it. There's no design in the program to inflict pain and suffering, the residents demanded it, and they go to the Quagmire of their own free will. They are CHOOSING suffering. The suffering ends by mere exercise of free will.
To feel what it was like to be Yorkie. Yorkie was also in a car crash which left her in a permanent vegitative state, this was creating a parallel between the two. Even if only for a minute, Kelly gets to be Yorkie. Also, as you mentioned later, it was her trying to escape and realizing she couldn't. there is no death in San Junipero.
No. It is not Hell. Nor is it Heaven, though Yorkie and Kelly do get a happy ending and they, through the exercise of free will, make it so. Kelly is holding on to the grief of her family, and punishing herself for it. She is spiritually doing the same thing as the denizens of the Quagmire: she is not letting go of earthly concerns and preventing it from achieving happiness. It is not until she enters death as new phase of her existence, leaving the concerns of earht behind, that she can be happy. It is Heaven for the two of them because they chose to make it Heaven. But it requires the act of letting go.
It's a beautiful episode.
quote:
Question #1: What was the point of Quagmire, the hellish club outside of San Junipero? Why would dying or dead people choose to go to a danceclub version of Hell? Different strokes, different folks? Did you notice that the deeper Yorkie walked into Quagmire the more sinful and evil it became? It was the danceclub version of Dante's Inferno:
It's the residents of San Junipero trying to feel something again. They have been so anesthesthitized to the experience that they are seeking out pain to be inflicted because it is at least feeling. Yes, the Quagmire is designed to be spiritual suffering, but I'd argue that makes it Purgatory, not Hell. The demons eat at your sins, causing you pain, but eventually your sin is gone and you can ascend, unburdened into heaven.
These are the people who have not let go of their earthly lives yet. Until they accept that they are dead, and this condition is permanent and there's no going back, then they will continue to suffer. But I'd argue it's a good suffering, as they are unburdening themselves of their past life. Also, it comes down to the old adage: Hell is what you make it. There's no design in the program to inflict pain and suffering, the residents demanded it, and they go to the Quagmire of their own free will. They are CHOOSING suffering. The suffering ends by mere exercise of free will.
quote:
Question #2: Why did Kelly run her jeep into a road block, an action that would certainly kill her in real life, when she only had 1 minute remaining in San Junipero? That scene didn't make sense to me. Her time was about to end. Plus, in San Junipero there's no way to hurt yourself, no way to die, because it's all a simulation...so what was the point of that?
To feel what it was like to be Yorkie. Yorkie was also in a car crash which left her in a permanent vegitative state, this was creating a parallel between the two. Even if only for a minute, Kelly gets to be Yorkie. Also, as you mentioned later, it was her trying to escape and realizing she couldn't. there is no death in San Junipero.
quote:
Question #3: Is it possible that San Junipero is Hell on Earth disguised as Heaven? People in San Junipero seem lost in sinful repetition. It would be like choosing a "Groundhog Day" version of Vegas as your afterlife. It's a place where people who have zero religious faith choose to go when they die, cowardly shunning the "unknown" (God, Heaven, and potential reunification with deceased family and friends) in favor of immediate sinful gratification: Drinking, meaningless sex, empty relationships, etc.
No. It is not Hell. Nor is it Heaven, though Yorkie and Kelly do get a happy ending and they, through the exercise of free will, make it so. Kelly is holding on to the grief of her family, and punishing herself for it. She is spiritually doing the same thing as the denizens of the Quagmire: she is not letting go of earthly concerns and preventing it from achieving happiness. It is not until she enters death as new phase of her existence, leaving the concerns of earht behind, that she can be happy. It is Heaven for the two of them because they chose to make it Heaven. But it requires the act of letting go.
It's a beautiful episode.
Posted on 12/2/16 at 9:14 am to Baloo
quote:
It's a beautiful episode.
From a film and storytelling perspective - I agree.
But from a philosophical perspective, I totally disagree. I believe the story is actually frightening.
I also read that in Season 4 the creators are planning a sequel to San Junipero.
I bet you in Season 4 we discover San Junipero is Hell.
Posted on 12/2/16 at 9:21 am to mizzoukills
quote:
I bet you in Season 4 we discover San Junipero is Hell.
the problem with your entire premise is you have a very limited definition of Hell
it might be your Hell, but it might be Heaven for others
Posted on 12/2/16 at 9:23 am to Salmon
quote:
it might be your Hell, but it might be Heaven for others
Once again, San Junipero cannot be Heaven for ANYONE as long as tourists experience human emotions and have access to past memories - which all tourists in San Junipero do.
You so want to believe this is a positive episode you're actually ignoring the philosophical dilemma...
This post was edited on 12/2/16 at 9:27 am
Posted on 12/2/16 at 9:27 am to mizzoukills
quote:
Once again, it cannot be a Heaven for anyone as long as they experience human emotion and have access to past memories
says who?
you?
quote:
You so want to believe this is a positive episode you're actually ignoring the philosophical dilemma...
I understand the dilemma, especially from Kelly's side
Yorkie's choice was easy. She never really lived. San Junipero gave her a chance to live.
Kelly was grieving and felt that it was unfair that her daughter never got the chance at extra life. Her husband chose not to go to SJ for the chance that there was another afterlife and he could be with their daughter. Kelly knew that there wasn't another afterlife. But she felt guilty for being able to live happily without her husband and daughter. She finally let go of that guilt.
You are relying on a few false premises:
1) That Kelly actually had faith
2) That San Junipero was a prison and you couldn't leave
3) That your strict definition of Heaven is the only Heaven
This post was edited on 12/2/16 at 9:32 am
Posted on 12/2/16 at 9:28 am to mizzoukills
quote:
Once again, it cannot be a Heaven for anyone as long as they experience human emotion and have access to past memories - which all tourists in San Junipero do.
You claim that hell isn't torture, wailing, gnashing of teeth but instead just a place to remember your regrets, but then you dismiss it as heaven becuase it doesn't fit your idea of what it should be?
Of course SJ isn't "heaven", the viewer can plainly and with 100% certainty see exactly what SJ is...it's a place to upload your consciousness for eternity. That isn't heaven or hell, it's just a computer simulation.
But if forced to pick between the 2 it would be far more heaven-like than hell, where there is absolutely ZERO happiness or joy at all for eternity.
Posted on 12/2/16 at 9:36 am to WG_Dawg
And again, to echo Dawg's thoughts here, not only is in NOT heaven or hell, if it is anything, it is BOTH. The function of free will is that we can choose to make our eternity heaven or hell, even when it is the same place. Or, as I argued previously, Purgatory.
The exercise of free will allows people to make the world what they make of us. We control our destinies.
The exercise of free will allows people to make the world what they make of us. We control our destinies.
Posted on 12/2/16 at 9:38 am to Baloo
quote:
Or, as I argued previously, Purgatory.
I like this much better, especially if like Yorkie stated, you can leave whenever you want
so these people basically go and re-live until they feel as they have done everything needed, then they release themselves and move on to whatever you want to believe
Posted on 12/2/16 at 9:47 am to Salmon
The problem is: I don't believe there is a self release feature. I think Yorkie selfishly told Kelly that to convince Kelly to choose Yorkie over the spiritual unknown.
But that's my opinion.
I can go along with Purgatory, but Hell masked as Heaven makes more sense from a Black Mirror perspective...especially if the creators of the series are planning a sequel to San Junipero in Season 4.
If everything in San Junipero is peace and happiness...there's no need for a sequel, folks.
But that's my opinion.
I can go along with Purgatory, but Hell masked as Heaven makes more sense from a Black Mirror perspective...especially if the creators of the series are planning a sequel to San Junipero in Season 4.
If everything in San Junipero is peace and happiness...there's no need for a sequel, folks.
Posted on 12/2/16 at 9:48 am to mizzoukills
quote:
The problem is: I don't believe there is a self release feature.
obviously as your entire premise relies on it
Posted on 12/2/16 at 9:50 am to Salmon
quote:
obviously as your entire premise relies on it
Not true. Why should the audience believe Yorkie? She 100 percent has an agenda. Her agenda is to be with Kelly and she'll do what it takes to make that happen including telling Kelly that there is a self release feature.
Why should we believe Yorkie?
Posted on 12/2/16 at 9:53 am to mizzoukills
quote:
If everything in San Junipero is peace and happiness
No one said it's all peace and happiness. All I've been trying to say is that the simple fact that SOME happiness exists at all, for any time period, automatically disqualifies SJ as being hell which you claim it is.
Posted on 12/2/16 at 9:54 am to mizzoukills
quote:
Not true
of course it does
if they can leave at will, how are they condemning themselves to Hell?
quote:
Why should we believe Yorkie?
because Kelly believed her and never hinted otherwise that Yorkie was wrong
are we to believe that Kelly, who had been going to San Junipero a lot longer than Yorkie, is unaware of how it works?
Posted on 12/2/16 at 10:21 am to mizzoukills
When I saw this episode I really disliked it, especially the ending. I think your take on it, where san junipero may be a form of hell, makes it much more interesting.
(I missed some of those ideas because in skipping over the lesbian and quagmire segments I missed like half the episode.)
(I missed some of those ideas because in skipping over the lesbian and quagmire segments I missed like half the episode.)
Posted on 12/2/16 at 10:22 am to lagallifrey
quote:
(I missed some of those ideas because in skipping over the lesbian and quagmire segments I missed like half the episode.)
...
Posted on 12/2/16 at 12:12 pm to lagallifrey
quote:
(I missed some of those ideas because in skipping over the lesbian and quagmire segments I missed like half the episode.)
hold on a sec...you skipped over the lesbian scenes?
This post was edited on 12/2/16 at 12:13 pm
Posted on 12/2/16 at 12:30 pm to mizzoukills
As an aside, it would be courteous to edit your title for those that haven't seen. As written someone who hasn't seen SJ yet is going to know before watching that it's some kind of heaven/hell/purgatory/afterlife/whatever. Which is kind of a big plot point.
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