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re: Judgment at Nuremberg is on TCM @ 9:45 pm (Eastern)
Posted on 11/21/13 at 6:31 pm to White Roach
Posted on 11/21/13 at 6:31 pm to White Roach
quote:
Stalin's Russia could give Hitler's Germany a run for it's money when it came to executing enemies of the state. And as hard as is to imagine, Stalin probably cared even less about the Russian population in general than Hitler did about non-Ayran Germans. Stalin was a ruthless bastard.
If you were a German soldier, you prayed that you would be captured or would be able to surrender to the Western Allies. Many German POWs who were held by the Russians died in POW camps. The Russians were ruthless, and the Nuremberg trials probably saved a lot of Nazis' lives. The Soviets were just itching to start the executions or to throw them in camps in Siberia for the rest of their lives.
I read somewhere that out of the ~90,000 Germans captured in the defeat at Stalingrad, only about 6,000 actually made it back to Germany after the war.
1
Posted on 11/21/13 at 7:49 pm to GetCocky11
Your Stalingrad figures are very close, if not correct. As I read your first couple of lines I was thinking about the Stalingrad prisoners also. I want to say I remember hearing ~9,000 of ~105,000 survived, but whatever the exact figure, conditions for PWs in Russia were abysmal and civilians weren't doing much better.
Posted on 11/21/13 at 8:28 pm to IonaTiger
Iona Tiger:
Thanks for your response. You make a good point about the overwhelming evidence presented leading to guilty verdicts.
I've always wondered how much the average German civilian or Wehrmacht private knew about what was actually happening during the "resettlement" program. Surely they had to have suspicions about what was going on, even if the actual scale was beyond conception for a rational human being. What did they think happened to all of their Jewish neighbors? Where did they think those trains were going?
As far as the "I was just following orders" argument goes, I'd think disobeying would be suicidal in Nazi Germany. US service members are schooled on what is an "illegal order" and what is not. I believe this training was ramped up after My Lai.
Thanks for your response. You make a good point about the overwhelming evidence presented leading to guilty verdicts.
I've always wondered how much the average German civilian or Wehrmacht private knew about what was actually happening during the "resettlement" program. Surely they had to have suspicions about what was going on, even if the actual scale was beyond conception for a rational human being. What did they think happened to all of their Jewish neighbors? Where did they think those trains were going?
As far as the "I was just following orders" argument goes, I'd think disobeying would be suicidal in Nazi Germany. US service members are schooled on what is an "illegal order" and what is not. I believe this training was ramped up after My Lai.
Posted on 11/21/13 at 8:52 pm to White Roach
WR, the average German soldier probably didn't know what was going on in concentration camps, or at least know to the extent murders were occurring. This is why I say that the architects of the "Final Solution" undoubtedly deserved the death penalty. My guess is some lesser involved Germans were also put to death.
Civilians around the camps had to know what was going on with all of the ash that was being created. But as you say, what were they to do? Protest meant death.
So many ethical/moral decisions come into play during war. I recall the scene from "Glory" when the 54th went out with a colonel who had renegade troops. He ordered Shaw to torch the town. Shaw declined. The colonel told him that it was an order and Shaw said it was an immoral order that did not have to be obeyed. The colonel told him that if he didn't follow the order he would bring him up on a court martial and would take over the 54th. Shaw acceded. Did he do the right thing? I don't know.
"Judgment at Nuremberg" made me think of a lot of things. Apparently, it made you think, too.
Civilians around the camps had to know what was going on with all of the ash that was being created. But as you say, what were they to do? Protest meant death.
So many ethical/moral decisions come into play during war. I recall the scene from "Glory" when the 54th went out with a colonel who had renegade troops. He ordered Shaw to torch the town. Shaw declined. The colonel told him that it was an order and Shaw said it was an immoral order that did not have to be obeyed. The colonel told him that if he didn't follow the order he would bring him up on a court martial and would take over the 54th. Shaw acceded. Did he do the right thing? I don't know.
"Judgment at Nuremberg" made me think of a lot of things. Apparently, it made you think, too.
Posted on 11/22/13 at 12:57 am to White Roach
quote:
I've always wondered how much the average German civilian or Wehrmacht private knew about what was actually happening during the "resettlement" program. Surely they had to have suspicions about what was going on, even if the actual scale was beyond conception for a rational human being. What did they think happened to all of their Jewish neighbors? Where did they think those trains were going?
The German army provided support to the Ensatzgruppen and sometimes took part in roundups themselves. A lot of German civilians followed the armies east in search of land and opportunity. German civilians administered the conquered areas. German railway workers crewed the deportation trains. German manufacturers built the crematoria ovens. German corporations used slave laborers. If anyone didn't know, it was because they didn't want to know.
quote:
As far as the "I was just following orders" argument goes, I'd think disobeying would be suicidal in Nazi Germany. US service members are schooled on what is an "illegal order" and what is not. I believe this training was ramped up after My Lai.
There's a book called "Hitler's Willing Executioners" that goes into this. The backbone of the Final Solution on the Eastern Front were ordinary German police who were put under SS command. Some of them were up to it, some weren't. The ones who couldn't bring themselves to carry out their assignments were given other duties or sent home. No disciplinary action taken. There were plenty of eager executioners. Most of them were never punished.
Posted on 11/22/13 at 9:01 am to Jim Rockford
I'll have to check out "Hitler's Willing Executioners" (Just what I need... Another Hitler/WWII book!)
I think the population of Germany was about 60 million around 1940. You're correct about private industry and civil servants being involved, Jewish officials even helped round up other Jews in some cases. But the entire population couldn't have been directly involved. I just wonder if rumors were running rampant in the bakery, barber shop or bar, or if little was spoken about it out of shame or fear of the Gestapo
putting you on the next train.
I completely agree that many civilians, especially in areas around the camps, had to have a very good idea of what was happening. I'd guess that a very large majority of those attempting to use the Sgt Schultz Defense - "I know NOTHING!!!" - were full of shite. But I also believe that there was probably some segment of the population, however small, that really and truly had no clue as to what was taking place.
Edit: 1940 population was 69,838,000. So I was only off by about ten million!
I think the population of Germany was about 60 million around 1940. You're correct about private industry and civil servants being involved, Jewish officials even helped round up other Jews in some cases. But the entire population couldn't have been directly involved. I just wonder if rumors were running rampant in the bakery, barber shop or bar, or if little was spoken about it out of shame or fear of the Gestapo
putting you on the next train.
I completely agree that many civilians, especially in areas around the camps, had to have a very good idea of what was happening. I'd guess that a very large majority of those attempting to use the Sgt Schultz Defense - "I know NOTHING!!!" - were full of shite. But I also believe that there was probably some segment of the population, however small, that really and truly had no clue as to what was taking place.
Edit: 1940 population was 69,838,000. So I was only off by about ten million!
This post was edited on 11/22/13 at 9:11 am
Posted on 11/22/13 at 1:37 pm to White Roach
It seems from my reading that the German people was willing to look the other way as long as it didn't hit too close to home. At the same time, the Nazi government realized it still didn't have total control of the population and could only go so far. They could use terror and intimidation tactics, to keep things under control, but never could have dealt with truly mass resistance, either from the military or civilian sector.
Two examples: They halted the euthanasia program when the Catholic Church strongly objected. And when they tried to deport German Jews who were married to gentiles, there were public protests, and they backed off.
Two examples: They halted the euthanasia program when the Catholic Church strongly objected. And when they tried to deport German Jews who were married to gentiles, there were public protests, and they backed off.
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