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re: Life as a Lawyer Advice Needed
Posted on 4/1/24 at 11:30 am to Ace Midnight
Posted on 4/1/24 at 11:30 am to Ace Midnight
quote:
I would consider eating my hat if the median attorney income in Louisiana was much over $100k. I would be more shocked if it was $150k versus about $80k
I agree.
There are a lot of lawyers not in big firms in Nola and BR. A LOT of them.
1
Posted on 4/1/24 at 1:11 pm to SlowFlowPro
I don’t think that looking at people who simply have law degrees is enough. You need to evaluate positions that require the use of a law degree. I would be shocked to find a significant number of practicing Louisiana attorneys working in the private sector for less than $100k a year after ten years of practice.
Even a small town lawyer with his own firm billing at $150/hour would easily hit that billing 1500 hours a year.
Even a small town lawyer with his own firm billing at $150/hour would easily hit that billing 1500 hours a year.
Posted on 4/1/24 at 1:25 pm to Athanatos
quote:
Even a small town lawyer with his own firm billing at $150/hour would easily hit that billing 1500 hours a year.
That's not the way it works. Assume a non-BR or New Orleans defense firm. Bill 1500 at $150. That's $225k, right? A full third of that goes right to overhead. If an associate, another 1/3 goes to the partners. Now, the partners (again, assume 6 or 7 out of 20 attorneys) will get a third of their own receipts, maybe at a little bump in rate, plus the profit sharing. Associates might get a bonus for getting over $225k (assuming your numbers and it fits the business model). So you have about 14 associates in this hypothetical firm making $100k or less.
ETA Your comment was a solo firm billing $150. Sorry to have gotten into firm economics. Assuming the attorney runs a very lean operation, rent, staff, Westlaw, insurance, etc., are going to bite off 40% of receipts ... easily. And, assuming this is mainly domestic or other boutique practice, business and getting bills paid will present unique challenges. My firm economics from above are the majority of billable firms, ie insurance defense.
This post was edited on 4/1/24 at 1:47 pm
Posted on 4/1/24 at 2:10 pm to Athanatos
quote:
Even a small town lawyer with his own firm billing at $150/hour would easily hit that billing 1500 hours a year.
That's 225k gross.
For a small town attorney to bill 1500, you're likely looking at a receptionist and secretary/paralegal. Assuming he's not shady and doesn't make them ICs, that's 70-90k in terms of salary, employer taxes, WC, etc.
Right there with no overhead, you're at 135-150k.
Then there is malpractice (3k), rent (12-30k), supplies, CLEs, equipment, etc.
That's also assuming you're paid 100% on those 1500 hours and I would imagine actual collection for a small firm would turn 1500 billed hours into 1200-1300 paid hours in the best year.
*ETA: 1500 hours/year is also generous. I made a comment in a CLE a year or 2 ago that the city of Jennings has almost no lawyers who are not taking government money (DA salary, PD salary, PD contract, judge, etc.) to survive.
This post was edited on 4/1/24 at 2:15 pm
Posted on 4/1/24 at 3:40 pm to Ace Midnight
quote:
works. Assume a non-BR or New Orleans defense firm.
I would assume an insurance defense firm would be billing more than $150. I used that number for a rural law office.
$150 is a shite rate for a lawyer in Louisiana when diesel mechanics charge almost as much.
Posted on 4/1/24 at 4:03 pm to Athanatos
This is not my area of expertise but I think a lot of firms actually bid less than that rate for insurance defense in exchange for guaranteed volume. I had to do some research for conflict council hourly rates a few months ago. It would not shock me if there are some insurance defense firms who are billing around $125 an hour in exchange for guaranteed volume.
That's 250k for 2k billable hours for an associate being paid 75-90k and a shared paralegal making probably 11/hour (billed around 25-30).
50-70k pure profit per associate. 2 associates per partner and that 100k-140k each just in associate profit. You should have more of a 1.5-4 associate per partner ratio.
*ETA: that's for the hourly-based, volume cases that won't get a ton of oversight (aka cutting). Insurance firms aren't paying huge hourly rates if they can help it. They'll just start one of those fake law firms that's really employees of the insurance company directly.
*ETA2: LA doesn't have real industry/business b/c our economy is shite, so "big law" is primarily insurance defense. That firm charging the insurance company $150/hour on a volume contract in Nola will charge a local business $450-500/hour, if they can get it.
That's 250k for 2k billable hours for an associate being paid 75-90k and a shared paralegal making probably 11/hour (billed around 25-30).
50-70k pure profit per associate. 2 associates per partner and that 100k-140k each just in associate profit. You should have more of a 1.5-4 associate per partner ratio.
*ETA: that's for the hourly-based, volume cases that won't get a ton of oversight (aka cutting). Insurance firms aren't paying huge hourly rates if they can help it. They'll just start one of those fake law firms that's really employees of the insurance company directly.
*ETA2: LA doesn't have real industry/business b/c our economy is shite, so "big law" is primarily insurance defense. That firm charging the insurance company $150/hour on a volume contract in Nola will charge a local business $450-500/hour, if they can get it.
This post was edited on 4/1/24 at 4:09 pm
Posted on 4/1/24 at 4:50 pm to Athanatos
quote:
I would assume an insurance defense firm would be billing more than $150.
I'm sure some will, especially partner rate. Insurance companies are notoriously frugal, my guy. I haven't been in private practice for quite some time, so Jake or others might have better insight on what the going rates are.
ETA: I have nothing to disagree with in the above response -
This post was edited on 4/1/24 at 4:52 pm
Posted on 4/1/24 at 4:55 pm to Athanatos
Lot of ID firms are in the 125/150 range.
Posted on 4/1/24 at 4:57 pm to SlowFlowPro
NOLA ins defense rates currently are more like $175-$225.
Posted on 4/1/24 at 6:23 pm to OleVaught14
quote:
The rest who break into big law will be in an office in Atlanta, Dallas, Charlotte, etc... which is still big law, but not the NYC big law people see on TV and think about
big law is big law—I work with the same clients/partners in my office as the people in our Charlotte and NYC offices
Posted on 4/2/24 at 6:33 am to vistajay
quote:
NOLA ins defense rates currently are more like $175-$225.
Damn that’s low. I don’t hire a lawyer often, but I was paying $225-250 or more for many years.
I don’t know how paralegal billing works, but I’m damn positive most of these small town firms have no issue with paralegals doing huge amounts of work, a 5 min lawyer overview and signature, and billing at the legal rate. Items like basic paperwork and what not.
Posted on 4/2/24 at 8:27 am to baldona
quote:
but I was paying $225-250 or more for many years.
You weren't guaranteeing that lawyer thousands of billables every year. Those rates are below market due to the agreement for guaranteed work.
I have it on good authority a few of the family law attorneys here are charging around $500/hour, so I imagine the top ones in BR/Nola are over $600 and maybe approaching $750. You will pay more for non-volume insurance defense work, but even a whale of a divorce client likely won't top out at more than $100k and you don't get them all the time.
quote:
I don’t know how paralegal billing works, but I’m damn positive most of these small town firms have no issue with paralegals doing huge amounts of work, a 5 min lawyer overview and signature, and billing at the legal rate. Items like basic paperwork and what not.
Probably more true than most attorneys would like to admit (for ethical reasons).
Posted on 4/2/24 at 8:50 am to Unsettled
There are a lot of questions here, some explicit, some implicit.
1. As to the explicit question, as someone who took a full scholarship to LSU law, I've never regretted that decision for a second. The degree of financial freedom I had in my 20s and 30s was unparalleled compared to my peers who had significant loans from higher-ranked schools. This gave me a lot more opportunity to take the jobs I wanted, which is important because...
2. being a lawyer sucks. A lot of people hear this and put it down to whining or just shop talk but the objective numbers bear it out. It is a provably unpleasant profession as compared to its near-peer professions. And, although I have nothing to prove this part, I feel like this is more true of first-generation lawyers as opposed to people in the family business. I'm not going to rehash this discussion here but I would encourage you and your daughter to look into this. (Of course there are exceptions. Everyone thinks they'll be the exception, just like everyone thinks they'll draw a 6 sitting on 15.) Anyway, as a result,
3. A large number of law school grads don't end up practicing law, or do so for a very short period of time. I was *shocked* to arrive at my first LS reunion (5 years) and discover how many classmates were not actually attorneys, already. This was particularly true of the women but included several men as well. Law schools lie about this by the way. They spin it as showing how malleable law degrees can be, and how many options you'll have. That's not really what's going on.
4. LSU is provincial, but every law school is provincial. That being said hiring lawyers aren't idiots, and if you really do have top grades and law review from LSU (or almost any school) you'll be fine and your degree will be portable. The geographic limitations really weigh on people falling under the top ten percent.
5. I would often advise someone to paralegal or be a runner for a year. If you do that and still want to be a lawyer, Godspeed. I'm not sure that applies here as she has a full scholarship offer right now, and there's no guarantee that will carry over to next year. (Of course that cuts both ways, she could work a year or two, reapply, and end up getting better scholarship offers from UT or USC).
6. Why LSU? Why Louisiana? Has she ever even been to Baton Rouge? A scholarship is great but I'm not sure that, standing alone, is a sufficient reason for LSU.
1. As to the explicit question, as someone who took a full scholarship to LSU law, I've never regretted that decision for a second. The degree of financial freedom I had in my 20s and 30s was unparalleled compared to my peers who had significant loans from higher-ranked schools. This gave me a lot more opportunity to take the jobs I wanted, which is important because...
2. being a lawyer sucks. A lot of people hear this and put it down to whining or just shop talk but the objective numbers bear it out. It is a provably unpleasant profession as compared to its near-peer professions. And, although I have nothing to prove this part, I feel like this is more true of first-generation lawyers as opposed to people in the family business. I'm not going to rehash this discussion here but I would encourage you and your daughter to look into this. (Of course there are exceptions. Everyone thinks they'll be the exception, just like everyone thinks they'll draw a 6 sitting on 15.) Anyway, as a result,
3. A large number of law school grads don't end up practicing law, or do so for a very short period of time. I was *shocked* to arrive at my first LS reunion (5 years) and discover how many classmates were not actually attorneys, already. This was particularly true of the women but included several men as well. Law schools lie about this by the way. They spin it as showing how malleable law degrees can be, and how many options you'll have. That's not really what's going on.
4. LSU is provincial, but every law school is provincial. That being said hiring lawyers aren't idiots, and if you really do have top grades and law review from LSU (or almost any school) you'll be fine and your degree will be portable. The geographic limitations really weigh on people falling under the top ten percent.
5. I would often advise someone to paralegal or be a runner for a year. If you do that and still want to be a lawyer, Godspeed. I'm not sure that applies here as she has a full scholarship offer right now, and there's no guarantee that will carry over to next year. (Of course that cuts both ways, she could work a year or two, reapply, and end up getting better scholarship offers from UT or USC).
6. Why LSU? Why Louisiana? Has she ever even been to Baton Rouge? A scholarship is great but I'm not sure that, standing alone, is a sufficient reason for LSU.
Posted on 4/2/24 at 9:06 am to baldona
The last full rate sheet I saw for an insurance defense firm was from 2021 and it started at $195 and went up to $255 for attorneys. The paralegal was billed out at $145.
Since then I have more often seen legal bills for experienced New Orleans litigation attorneys billing high $200s and low $300s.
But from what I am reading here it seems that a guy with a title/loan/attorney/snowball stand in Bunkie who makes half his income from the actual practice of law is probably a better indicator of the median attorney in Louisiana.
Since then I have more often seen legal bills for experienced New Orleans litigation attorneys billing high $200s and low $300s.
But from what I am reading here it seems that a guy with a title/loan/attorney/snowball stand in Bunkie who makes half his income from the actual practice of law is probably a better indicator of the median attorney in Louisiana.
Posted on 4/2/24 at 9:09 am to Cold Cous Cous
Thanks for the honest insight.
Quite a few good follow up posts actually. I even liked a SFP post earlier because it was good. That’s rare.
I also bet the snowball stand in Bunkie makes $100,000 a year in cash.
Quite a few good follow up posts actually. I even liked a SFP post earlier because it was good. That’s rare.
I also bet the snowball stand in Bunkie makes $100,000 a year in cash.
This post was edited on 4/2/24 at 4:30 pm
Posted on 4/2/24 at 9:56 am to Athanatos
quote:
But from what I am reading here it seems that a guy with a title/loan/attorney/snowball stand in Bunkie who makes half his income from the actual practice of law is probably a better indicator of the median attorney in Louisiana.
There are a lot of areas not BR or Nola in Louisiana.
quote:
Since then I have more often seen legal bills for experienced New Orleans litigation attorneys billing high $200s and low $300s.
Even within Nola, this is the rare exception. Nola isn't some business hub, so even the "big law (LA)" population isn't super huge. Now think about all the lawyers in the Nola metro grinding out their living off the poor population (non-MVA cases). Divorces, criminal, etc. That population, even in Nola, is yuge.
And, again, you're ignoring all of the lawyers getting their money from government in some way. VERY few of them are making more than $125k/year. Certain government-baked nonprofits and state agencies start offers in the low-mid 40s.
Posted on 4/2/24 at 10:02 am to SlowFlowPro
When Plattsmier retired last year they advertised the Chief Disciplinary Counsel position for 125-150k (depending on experience). That's an incredibly important and powerful position within the Louisiana legal community, and they're offering a salary equal to clueless first-years on Poydras St.
Posted on 4/2/24 at 12:06 pm to Unsettled
I'm a law firm owner with about 21 employees. I say that to help provide context for the answers to your questions.
Everyone in law school is a hard worker and an overachiever. Being at the top of your class in college does not equate to being at the top of your class in law school. If she goes to a top-tier law school, she'll be running a race with a whole class of track champions. Was her LSAT >160?
Not great for anyone who doesn't graduate at the top of their class.
I would tell her to go to a bigger school if she wants to live somewhere other than Louisiana. But to answer your question, 60k a year is not a lot of money, but for a 20-something right out of school, it is fine.
Where she clerks while in school is of the utmost importance. Does she want to work in a big elevator law firm on the 40th floor somewhere? Does she want to open her own firm one day? Does she want to litigate? Does she prefer transactional work? Does she have a charming personality such that she would be able to generate her own work? All of these are things she needs to be considering.
Successful PI lawyers and successful criminal lawyers make the most money in Louisiana in small firms. Partners at the largest firms can make what PI lawyers make, but it takes them 15 years or so to get there.
If money is all she's after, she needs to consider that when it comes to what firms she clerks at. She'll make way less money clerking for a firm like mine (I pay $15 an hour, whereas the big firms pay closer to $30 or even $45 out of state), but I start my lawyers at $120k per year, and my highest-paid lawyers make seven figures a year.
Long story short, she needs a road map to what she wants, and pick firms to clerk at that will get her there. Too many students pick the highest paying clerking jobs, then don't have the resume that fits the job they really want. Short-sighted all the way around.
There are three types of lawyers and only three types:
1. Finders. These are the rain-makers. They can generate work, don't eat with their feet, can play golf, tell good jokes, play cards, and are just as at home at Ruth's Chris or the country club as they are in the courtroom. These are your highest-earning lawyers. Finders make up about 10% of the lawyers.
2. Minders. These are the lawyer who have good people skills but aren't the country club and Ruth's Chris schoozers. They may not have the in-person charm or, frankly, the charisma to hold court at a white-linen dinner with clients. BUT, they can talk on the phone with clients and ask clients how their kid's t-ball game went. Successful minders are the folks who make notes in their CRM about the clients to ask them about later, like vacations, hobbies, etc. In other words, they can "mind" the clients once they are originated and brought into the firm. These are the lawyers the partners trust calling and emailing clients, but they aren't going to get the day off to go golfing or invited to long Friday lunches at Ruth's Chris. They are the middle-of-the-road earners. Minders make up about 40% of the lawyers.
3. Grinders. These are the lawyers who get stuck in 10x10 offices for life. They are the workhorses of a law firm. They draft pleadings, attend depositions of non-clients, do legal research, and write legal memos for the Finders and Minders in the firm. They are the lowest rung of earners because they are the most easily replaced. Grinders make up about 50% of the lawyers.
Is your daughter a finder, minder, or grinder? That will answer a lot of your questions about what kind of earner she will be. If she's a grinder, she needs to pick a niche line of work to be a decent earner... something like intellectual property, maritime defense, or the like.
The worst earners are the grinders who try to open their own firm. They ultimately fail and end up going back to another firm to do some grinding for a finder or minder.
Ponder these things, and good luck to her!
quote:
She is a hard worker and an overachiever so I know she will graduate near the top of any class she attends.
Everyone in law school is a hard worker and an overachiever. Being at the top of your class in college does not equate to being at the top of your class in law school. If she goes to a top-tier law school, she'll be running a race with a whole class of track champions. Was her LSAT >160?
quote:
1. What is the job market like for lawyers in Louisiana for a kid with good grades but no contacts.
Not great for anyone who doesn't graduate at the top of their class.
quote:
2. What is life like for a professional living and working in Louisiana? Lawyers do ok money wise but nothing like doctors and they usually start at 60-70k a year. Is it pleasant to live in LA on 65k a year??
I would tell her to go to a bigger school if she wants to live somewhere other than Louisiana. But to answer your question, 60k a year is not a lot of money, but for a 20-something right out of school, it is fine.
quote:
3. I don’t know enough to really ask the right questions so if you have any other insight that would be helpful please give it.
Where she clerks while in school is of the utmost importance. Does she want to work in a big elevator law firm on the 40th floor somewhere? Does she want to open her own firm one day? Does she want to litigate? Does she prefer transactional work? Does she have a charming personality such that she would be able to generate her own work? All of these are things she needs to be considering.
Successful PI lawyers and successful criminal lawyers make the most money in Louisiana in small firms. Partners at the largest firms can make what PI lawyers make, but it takes them 15 years or so to get there.
If money is all she's after, she needs to consider that when it comes to what firms she clerks at. She'll make way less money clerking for a firm like mine (I pay $15 an hour, whereas the big firms pay closer to $30 or even $45 out of state), but I start my lawyers at $120k per year, and my highest-paid lawyers make seven figures a year.
Long story short, she needs a road map to what she wants, and pick firms to clerk at that will get her there. Too many students pick the highest paying clerking jobs, then don't have the resume that fits the job they really want. Short-sighted all the way around.
There are three types of lawyers and only three types:
1. Finders. These are the rain-makers. They can generate work, don't eat with their feet, can play golf, tell good jokes, play cards, and are just as at home at Ruth's Chris or the country club as they are in the courtroom. These are your highest-earning lawyers. Finders make up about 10% of the lawyers.
2. Minders. These are the lawyer who have good people skills but aren't the country club and Ruth's Chris schoozers. They may not have the in-person charm or, frankly, the charisma to hold court at a white-linen dinner with clients. BUT, they can talk on the phone with clients and ask clients how their kid's t-ball game went. Successful minders are the folks who make notes in their CRM about the clients to ask them about later, like vacations, hobbies, etc. In other words, they can "mind" the clients once they are originated and brought into the firm. These are the lawyers the partners trust calling and emailing clients, but they aren't going to get the day off to go golfing or invited to long Friday lunches at Ruth's Chris. They are the middle-of-the-road earners. Minders make up about 40% of the lawyers.
3. Grinders. These are the lawyers who get stuck in 10x10 offices for life. They are the workhorses of a law firm. They draft pleadings, attend depositions of non-clients, do legal research, and write legal memos for the Finders and Minders in the firm. They are the lowest rung of earners because they are the most easily replaced. Grinders make up about 50% of the lawyers.
Is your daughter a finder, minder, or grinder? That will answer a lot of your questions about what kind of earner she will be. If she's a grinder, she needs to pick a niche line of work to be a decent earner... something like intellectual property, maritime defense, or the like.
The worst earners are the grinders who try to open their own firm. They ultimately fail and end up going back to another firm to do some grinding for a finder or minder.
Ponder these things, and good luck to her!
This post was edited on 4/2/24 at 8:34 pm
Posted on 4/2/24 at 12:43 pm to Howard Juneau
quote:You hiring?
but I start my lawyers at $120k per year, and my highest-paid lawyers make seven figures a year.
Posted on 4/2/24 at 8:34 pm to NaturalBeam
quote:
You hiring?
Always. Are you a finder, minder, or grinder?
This post was edited on 4/2/24 at 8:35 pm
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